D&D General Sandbox Campaigns should have a Default Action.

[GMforPowergamers]

YES! Exactly.

that does not sound like any D&D experence I have had or even heard of please tell me more... I would LOVE some examples from play experence.

Emphasis mine.

That's the part I am saying is unnecessary and can be done without, if that is the way you want to play. Again I reiterate: I am not and have not said that is the only way to play a sandbox game, just that it is a viable way to play and that sanboxes DO NOT REQUIRE the GM to populate them first.

again, by the base set up of the game yeah it kinda is... You sound like you have an awesome group but I don't think there are many that do it that way (at least not that I know of) as much as I would love to hear more I doubt you will find it common even if we limit just to DMs that want to run sandboxes

 

[Reynard]

that does not sound like any D&D experence I have had or even heard of please tell me more... I would LOVE some examples from play experence.

again, by the base set up of the game yeah it kinda is... You sound like you have an awesome group but I don't think there are many that do it that way (at least not that I know of) as much as I would love to hear more I doubt you will find it common even if we limit just to DMs that want to run sandboxes

There are a few D&D adjacent games that do it, but none better than Worlds Without Number. (There's a free edition on DTRPG FYI). People will tell you that you need a PbtA or "Play to Find Out" ruleset to do this, but in my experience that is not true. But you do need to be good at improvising AND saying "yes, and!" to your players.

I have used every edition of D&D to do completely off the cuff games. You can lean on random charts and pre-designed motivations for villains, etc... You can do a bunch of world building beforehand, or none at all. The point is that you ask what the players want to do, say "Yes" and then fill in details as you go. It is liberating and a lot of fun.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I find that players who primarily play traditional prep games have been trained to be reactive. The strong, sometimes inviolate, feeling is that the DM will put the adventure in front of them, and they need to accept it. It's not a preference to react, it's what they have to do to catch the hook of the adventure, so that's their default mode of play.

in 15ish years of REALLY trying to be sandbox, and maybe closer to 20 if you count loose attempts. the hardest thing I have had is 'training' people to think about what they want not just my story... MY best games have gone into crazy I never would have dreamed when I started it directions... but even now with players that have all been with me for at least most of 5e, I find I still have some that fall back on only being reactionary...

I find that as a game grows, as the sessions go by though they start to grab something that I gave them as a very basic hook and make it into there own... Sometimes it's just a passing discription of a bandit that catches them, sometimes its a rumor I made up on the spot, sometimes it's an NPC I had detailed one way but they made an assumption and are running with it and show intrest so I change the NPC...

 

[Reynard]

in 15ish years of REALLY trying to be sandbox, and maybe closer to 20 if you count loose attempts. the hardest thing I have had is 'training' people to think about what they want not just my story... MY best games have gone into crazy I never would have dreamed when I started it directions... but even now with players that have all been with me for at least most of 5e, I find I still have some that fall back on only being reactionary...

I find that as a game grows, as the sessions go by though they start to grab something that I gave them as a very basic hook and make it into there own... Sometimes it's just a passing discription of a bandit that catches them, sometimes its a rumor I made up on the spot, sometimes it's an NPC I had detailed one way but they made an assumption and are running with it and show intrest so I change the NPC...

You're 90% of the way there. Next time, just don't do all that work up front. Trust your gut and make it ALL up on the spot.

 

[Remathilis]

yes and no.... there should always be change I would say but not all change is a bad consequence... the necromancer killing and animating the orcs DID escalate the threat (so my level 4 adventure you ignore is now a level 7 adventure you may or may not take) but no I am not going to kill the PC members family cause they ignored orcs... I spent YEARS convincing players that it is okay to have friends and family and things you care about and I wont just take them away. Last thing I want is "ooppes you picked the wrong threat so uncle Jessy is dead" unless I very well forecast teh danger uncle Jessy is in (take that as dukes of hazard or full house...either way)

to a point yes... my living worlds will of course SOMETIMES have something really bad happen but in general like I said I read the room. IF you reserched the cult and put effort in but went after the orcs first, I would escalate the cult so when you got back things got worse... but in general if you just ignore it I will spend LESS time on thhat plot.;

oh gosd this is why I hate running superhero games in the comic worlds, and I hate the FR more... 'let the justice league midnight handle it' is my go to phrase for why the realms is not my idea of a well thought out world. (I am a FR hater fyi)

but also yes... sometimes a bigger fish (good or bad) may handle something... now that bigger fish is in play do you make friends or enemies or do you ignore them too?

thank you it is an evolving concept of how I run and has been for 15ish years

with the caveat that things will evolve around that choice... but yeah I will spell out "Mama is in danger if something isn't done" but moveing moma to three towns over is as good as stopping the dragon from destroying were she lives... (I mean not really that is super evil but hey you saved your famility right?)

yeah, I have had players take the water route 'path of least resistance' However the orcs might have hundreds of gold and 1 or 2 minor items... the dragon and the drow working with her may have thousands of gold and 4-5 magic items 1 that is rare and powerful...

but if treasure is your goal D*D makes that easy anyway.

also xp (not to put too much a game spin on it) but hunting orcs is only xp worthy for so long as you level you are going to want bigger xp pay out to level quicker too.

by world I meant YOU the PCs world not the planet sorry... killing your family and burning the home you grew up in is pretty world shakiing to that person.

if the worlds in danger of really being destroyed there isn;'t much I can do to pull that punch, and I don't often have super high level NPC allies... but yeah, El-muchkin might just save toril.

again it depends. diffrent situations are diffrent... in above examples I have towns loseing 90% of there guard/reserves... so now theives run amock there, or the next threat is worse cause no one can fight it, or the PCs take up being a protection wracket... or (and this one is a real example) the PCs take all teh items they can't use, find people train them to use them then send another group out to handle things...

I think I get where you are coming from, and to be absolutely honest it's far more gamist than most people I've spoken with would have me believe about sandboxes.

Much of the time when sandbox play was invoked, there was a heavy element of choices and consequences. As in, you have the choice to ignore a problem, but the consequences will affect you regardless. Note that the consequences aren't always personal; not investigating a local farmer's disappearance might not affect the PC directly but only mean the village is now a ghost town when the PCs pass back though 6 months later.

I think this is an issue especially when the PCs are "special" and other bands of heroes, guards and sellswords don't exist to pick up your slack. When you are one of maybe a handful of wizards in the region, you tend to get the "great power/great responsibility" ethos tossed in your face. It actually seems refreshing to consider that occasionally other adventuring parties exist and clean up the messes you missed or even get to your score first. You aren't the heroes of destiny, you're just a bunch of people who live on a diet of adrenaline, luck, and healing potions.

I'm usually a narrative DM, the cultists you fight at level one will lead to fighting their demon lord at level 15+. But honestly, a campaign set in a frontier full of monsters, dungeons and evil plots but also rival adventurers competing for your business seems like a refreshing change of pace. And yes, Eliminster might be the one fighting the demon lord because you failed to kill the cult at level one, but that's all off screen because you chose instead to follow up the orc horde and got swept up in the politics of Many Arrows instead.

Like you though, there better be a quest giver or three in that tavern before the game becomes Arsonists and Agitators.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

There are a few D&D adjacent games that do it, but none better than Worlds Without Number. (There's a free edition on DTRPG FYI). People will tell you that you need a PbtA or "Play to Find Out" ruleset to do this, but in my experience that is not true. But you do need to be good at improvising AND saying "yes, and!" to your players.

I have heard of these narative focused games... they sound intrigueing but not for the moment withmy current group... in CoC and M&M having a roll to make a minor roll to the scene the DM/Storyteller set is most likely the most like that we would do.

I have used every edition of D&D to do completely off the cuff games. You can lean on random charts and pre-designed motivations for villains, etc... You can do a bunch of world building beforehand, or none at all. The point is that you ask what the players want to do, say "Yes" and then fill in details as you go. It is liberating and a lot of fun.

that sounds alot like my games minus the world building I do (some with them some without) before and between games... again I would love you to post an example... a time a PC in D&D 5e completly created there own plot

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You're 90% of the way there. Next time, just don't do all that work up front. Trust your gut and make it ALL up on the spot.

making it up before hand (we ccall it world building) is part of teh fun for me as a DM. I do love PCs adding and modifying things... but i think if I didn't have concepts and cities pre planed I would not have the same fun.
(My fiancé would love it though since I spend hours not in game working on the games now)

 

[Reynard]

making it up before hand (we ccall it world building) is part of teh fun for me as a DM. I do love PCs adding and modifying things... but i think if I didn't have concepts and cities pre planed I would not have the same fun.
(My fiancé would love it though since I spend hours not in game working on the games now)

I get it. I was more just trying to express that we aren't that far apart in our ways of thinking about sandboxes.

I am a very "broad strokes" world builder. I want things to feel consistent, but I also don't want to do a bunch of up front work. So I create a strong theme, tone and atmosphere, some foundational details, and then just hang everything on that while running. It doesn't provide the same sense of deep lore some players enjoy, but not every game is for every player. it does allow me to be responsive and improvisational and let the players explore what, how and what pace they want.

 

[Mannahnin]

TL;DR. Your sandbox campaigns need a default action to give them meaningful options on how to engage with the campaign if they don't know what options are available, or are not interested in the current options on what to do.

Good OP.

I tend to concur, this basic concept works well in sandbox/open world games. When I'm running such an open world game, I will tend to place a dungeon or three near the starting locale, and seed some rumors. The "default action" in my old school 5TD/ B/X game is hit up the tavern for rumors, or just head straight to the big nearby dungeon. Once the players have bitten on a rumor or three, and/or started exploring the local dungeons, more interesting events and rumors and plot seeds will naturally accrue, and the players will become more comfortable navigating the world and picking more involved threads to pull on/goals to chase.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think I get where you are coming from, and to be absolutely honest it's far more gamist than most people I've spoken with would have me believe about sandboxes.

I have ALSO been told I don't understand those terms enough to use them but yeah, I think in this case I would agree it's gamist.

I created a world (again with or without player input) then pitched it they agreed to play it and now in game they are controling where we go... but I have safty rule guild lines... like not killing a family member out of nowhere, not doing some very brutal things I wont put to words now... but I am also a horror writer (not published yet) and I can tell you I can narrate a brutal scene I would not want at my table.

Much of the time when sandbox play was invoked, there was a heavy element of choices and consequences.

I do agree with this too, just not that every consequence has to be the same... choosing the orcs or the dragon doesn't mean the other just goes and kills everyone. Consequences are important... but as you said 'gamesit' the game has to be fun both during and after those consequences.

someone has cards I think roll20 has them somewhere too about things that can or can't be done in games... but we just talk it out sometimes like adults and sometimes like 'mature' 13 year olds.

As in, you have the choice to ignore a problem, but the consequences will affect you regardless. Note that the consequences aren't always personal; not investigating a local farmer's disappearance might not affect the PC directly but only mean the village is now a ghost town when the PCs pass back though 6 months later.

yeah I have totally done that... I will raise you one better, I had a ghoul that they were pretty sure used to be the clerk at the alchemist shop...
I see no reason why a nameless bunch of NPC deaths isn't perfect. I could even have it be named cared about ones but I would spell that out "Hey, if you ignore X that puts Y in danger" although I rarely have to be THAT direct with it.

I think this is an issue especially when the PCs are "special" and other bands of heroes, guards and sellswords don't exist to pick up your slack.

that's a world thing... weather adventure... or hunter... or some other not murderhobo term is a 'thing' in this world or not changes things... can "Hey that other 4th level group of adventurers did it and are not the heroes of the town" work or not is dependent...

When you are one of maybe a handful of wizards in the region, you tend to get the "great power/great responsibility" ethos tossed in your face.

yeah. but not everyone plays peter parker... sometimes you get Lobo "with great power comes great fun" but I think over all my PCs end up somewhere inbetween those two.

It actually seems refreshing to consider that occasionally other adventuring parties exist and clean up the messes you missed or even get to your score first. You aren't the heroes of destiny, you're just a bunch of people who live on a diet of adrenaline, luck, and healing potions.

I rarely if ever (anymore) do 'destiny' pre 9th level, and even then I don't do it every campaign that hits 9+

I'm usually a narrative DM, the cultists you fight at level one will lead to fighting their demon lord at level 15+. But honestly, a campaign set in a frontier full of monsters, dungeons and evil plots but also rival adventurers competing for your business seems like a refreshing change of pace.

I have run both in sandbox form (in different degrees)

I even pulled a BIG fake out recently. I totally foreshadowed the lord of the lands was a strahd with the serial numbers filed off... at level 4ish when they found out he was a vampire nobody was shocked... they all figured they would level up, and someday have to face him.
then around level 7ish I had his 'daughter' send them an invitation... and they found out from her (who was plotting to overthrow him) that he had some super divination ability that was broken into to Foresight, and Prescience (I thought I gave away the trick with this one) foresight lets him look into moments of the future all the time (so no surprising him) and Prescience let him go into meditation to view possible futures (think Dr Strange in infinity war) BUT she knew his weakness... he can not see others with Prescience in these visions or what they do... so since she inhearted them she was a blind spot (how did this not give it away) and she told them of a way to become a temporary blind spot.

she then told them that she wanted/needed them to be a distraction, call the guards from his summer keep and then she and others would strike...

so we get to this and the PCs are 100% sure that 'not strahd' is going to kill her leaving them with this knowledge and being 'the only ones' to stop him...


but not only does she kill him but she kills his whole bloodline (except her 3 children and there father) and all of his main Lts... (The PCs handled 1 of them) then the PCs got a letter thanking them, from the lord... this was all according to plan, and it warned that this "golden path" he forced the world down was one of the only ways it survived... a threat was coming that could use prescience... that when he started this 15,000 years ago he HAD to become undead to guide the way. To force people to find these ways around prescience... 1 in 50 today can be, when he started it was 1 in a million. Then he told the PCs in this letter "Now the job is yours, I am at rest. Thank you... make sure the world is not destroyed, that we have a chance..." (He was based on the god emperor of dune) so a PC asked "when is this threat coming?" and another asked "Who or what is it..." then trailed off into other plot hooks they already had.
I told them good questions, now how are we going to find the answers...

the answer was the enemy was AT LEAST 200 years off... the PCs were not destined to stop it... only 1 would most likely even live to see it (unless they changed that somehow) but they could set up and make sure THOSE WHO WILL BE DESTINED have what they need...

the campaign ended due to an out of game personal tragedy. but twist of they didnt have a BBEG to fight but they get to set up for some future group to do it was amazing while it lasted.

Like you though, there better be a quest giver or three in that tavern before the game becomes Arsonists and Agitators.

yeah...