D&D General Sandbox Campaigns should have a Default Action.

[FallenRX]

I am looking forward to the explanation as to how these things are completely unalike, as opposed to a mild variation in tone and/or consent.

Because you think railroading is players wanting a strong central premise, or a clear defined hook, when it is not, railroading is the act of when he party is forced to do something no matter what they wanna do and there is no other options,, that is what railroading actually is, and no party wants that, and that is actively just a bad dnd campaign.

What you are talking about is a central premise or goal with a direct means of dealing with it, that is not railroading, that is just a linear adventure, with a purpose already agreed on.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I am looking forward to the explanation as to how these things are completely unalike, as opposed to a mild variation in tone and/or consent.

a linear story has a beginning middle and end but how you get through it is still up to the player, and the player choices in the beginning and middle effect the end.
in a railroad the DM has his ending picked out and doesn't matter who plays what or what they do.

A GREAT linear story could be a simple mega dungeon. You have to go through the rooms until the campagin ends... but it's not really a sandbox. it's very linear (1st floor 2nd floor) with SOME choice and variatn (did you find the secert door from level 2 to level 4 skipping level 3?) but I doubt many would call that a railroad.

A GREAT railroad story is one where the king sends out a summons for warriors to battle for the right to be his champion (and no that wasn't discussed in session 0) and one player say "Im a str 8 Con 11 wizard sage... I am no a warrior and I don't battle" but the DM says "Sorry you signed up and are in the next group melee that is how we are meeting the party" and the Rogue says "Um, wait why are we meeting as warriors I thought this was a water based ocean pirate game?" and the DM says "Trust me we will get to that..." and we start facing the melee... and he repositions us so we end up together (yes he moved our minis to many objections) and when it was clear our 2nd level party was not going to win he had warriors turn into minions that drop to one hit... a target that had a 14+ AC (13 had missed a round earlier) all of a sudden was hit when I hit a 9.... so he had the king great us as the great warriors, offer us magic weapons and armor... but none of us wore armor and most of us didn't need weapons (we made light weight character for sea travel like my barbarian was happy to get an axe but my con+dex was good for me) but he 'story pointed' we all took long swords, long bows, and field plate (maybe it is called half plate). of the +1 veriaity... the monk, wizard and rogue pointed out those were useless to them unless we were going to sell them and the rogue said "Can mine be a knife or short sword or rapier?" and he was told no... (oh there was a reason) so we got an info dump about the islands we were going to... so we go to the ship, and get ridiculed for wearing heavy armor (my barbarian's background was pirate and when I pointed out I wasn't wearing it the DM overrulled me...) so the captian made us strip and threw our new magic gear overboard (no big deal no real loss except to the hex blade) but it was a weird waste of time... until we get attacked by mermen in our armor and weapons... and he already had them stated as +1 longswords and +1 mithril plate (he didn't mention the mithril until now) but hey we would get them back after the fight right... wrong, the captain said all spoils of battle go to the ship... we tried to point out he had called it stupid BUT NOW he wanted it... and he sold it in the first town on the island... so we COULD buy it back with treasure...
I could go on but at no point did we ever make a meaningful choice.

 

[Reynard]

Because you think railroading is players wanting a strong central premise, or a clear defined hook, when it is not, railroading is the act of when he party is forced to do something no matter what they wanna do and there is no other options,, that is what railroading actually is, and no party wants that, and that is actively just a bad dnd campaign.

What you are talking about is a central premise or goal with a direct means of dealing with it, that is not railroading, that is just a linear adventure, with a purpose already agreed on.

Okay. I will counter with: that's a difference in tone only and they essentially mean the same thing. I am honestly not sure why you came in so hot over a relatively minor difference. If players I have actually sat at the table with have used the term in that way to describe the game theyw anted, why is it important that you correct them?

 

[FallenRX]

I might not just be doing a good job offering a definition. That doesn't mean there isn't one. Because I can certainly recognize a sandbox when I am in one, when I see one, or when I am running one, versus an investigation, an adventure path, etc. I don't remember exactly how I phrase it but it was probably something along the lines of players have full freedom to explore and do what they want, to set their own agenda, to not engage 'the adventure' to have an impact on the setting, etc. In a linear adventure the whole point is there is an adventure to be had, and players expect to find the threads to that adventure and stay on the path. It is also expected to have a structure to it that is discernible (a set of encounters that all make sense and lead somewhere, a set of events that get more dramatic etc). A sandbox is much more open, but also a lot less concerned with those structural expectations. So the upside is the players can indeed go where they want, set out on any adventure they want, engage any element of the setting they want. If they suddenly decide to start a haberdashery empire then that is normal and expected in a sandbox. That isn't normal and expected in a linear adventure. And if linear adventure opens up enough that players are free to do all these things without any conceit of play constraining them, then they are most likely in a sandbox.

The definition of a Sandbox that i think works the best is the Alexandrian one.
" A sandbox campaign is one in which the players are empowered to either choose or define what their next scenario is going to be."
Its as simple as that, if players can choose or define what they wish to do next, and there is no "Main path", just options and do they wish to engage or disengage, It is a sandbox campaign.

 

[Reynard]

I could go on but at no point did we ever make a meaningful choice.

I will reiterate: there are players, real people with whom I have sat at the table with, who DID NOT WANT any "meaningful choice" as you defined it. Some players want to be along for the ride sometimes. I admit they aren't common, and I have never had a player that wanted that ALL the time, but they are real players. In that scenario, their enjoyment comes from the reveals and the freedom to respond in character.

If "railroad" is too inherently negative for you, we can use my favorite alternate term: rollercoaster. Same exact thing in practice.

 

[FallenRX]

Okay. I will counter with: that's a difference in tone only and they essentially mean the same thing. I am honestly not sure why you came in so hot over a relatively minor difference. If players I have actually sat at the table with have used the term in that way to describe the game theyw anted, why is it important that you correct them?

Because I think you are actively wrong and very misguided, because very few player really likes being forced to do something they do not want to do, with no other options.

 

[Reynard]

Because I think you are actively wrong and very misguided, because very few player really likes being forced to do something they do not want to do, with no other options.

Have you ever been on a roller coaster?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I will reiterate: there are players, real people with whom I have sat at the table with, who DID NOT WANT any "meaningful choice"

yup used to drive my ex brother in law nuts... he was what I would call a beer and pretzle gamer. He wanted some story more or less told to him, and an excuse to kill things and take there stuff.

If "railroad" is too inherently negative for you, we can use my favorite alternate term: rollercoaster. Same exact thing in practice.

I don't see why we need to change terms... I think I at least have a firm grip on the difference between a linar story game, a railroad game, an open world sand box and a small area sand box,

 

[Cruentus]

Because I think you are actively wrong and very misguided, because very few player really likes being forced to do something they do not want to do, with no other options.

I still don't think you get it.

@Reynard IS SAYING THAT THE PLAYERS AT HIS TABLE PREFERRED THAT WAY OF PLAYING

I have a player that wants to follow the path (or at least the one that leads to treasure, magic items, and power), but won't make a decision for himself when asked "what do you do next?"

 

[FallenRX]

Have you ever been on a roller coaster?

Yes, and i've enjoyed it, but i would not enjoy it, if i was forced to go on a rollercoaster i didnt want to do on, and had no choice in going on it. That is the difference between a Linear Adventure, and a Railroad.

A Railroad is when they are specifically forced to do something with no other options.

 

[FallenRX]

I still don't think you get it.

@Reynard IS SAYING THAT THE PLAYERS AT HIS TABLE PREFERRED THAT WAY OF PLAYING

I have a player that wants to follow the path (or at least the one that leads to treasure, magic items, and power), but won't make a decision for himself when asked "what do you do next?"

I know that, but my point is what im saying, is what they are enjoying is not a railroad, but a Linear adventure, with a direct means of dealing with the content of the adventure, that is not a railroad, that is just a linear adventure. These two things are not the same, and the idea that they are is actually extremely terrible.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Because I think you are actively wrong and very misguided, because very few player really likes being forced to do something they do not want to do, with no other options.

Have you ever been on a roller coaster?

the problem is that you are disregarding each other... some players DO like railroads (and as I said even as a sandbox DM I need to use them sometimes) but there are also people that want to play dungeon of the mad mage (not a sandbox but not a railroad...or follercoaster, but a linear game)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I still don't think you get it.

@Reynard IS SAYING THAT THE PLAYERS AT HIS TABLE PREFERRED THAT WAY OF PLAYING

I have a player that wants to follow the path (or at least the one that leads to treasure, magic items, and power), but won't make a decision for himself when asked "what do you do next?"

yup and when I did my sandbox example for the qustion up thread I included a teifling hexblade with a cliche back story and no goals for this exact reason.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I know that, but my point is what im saying, is what they are enjoying is not a railroad, but a Linear adventure, with a direct means of dealing with the content of the adventure, that is not a railroad, that is just a linear adventure. These two things are not the same, and the idea that they are is actually extremely terrible.

no... there ARE fans of railroads... there are people that ONLY want it and will be seen as 'followers' in a sandbox game because they will make not 1 choice unless forced to.

 

[FallenRX]

no... there ARE fans of railroads... there are people that ONLY want it and will be seen as 'followers' in a sandbox game because they will make not 1 choice unless forced to.

Again, those are people who simply want simple linear adventure, with a direct method of dealing with something, that is not a railroad, because it is something they willing want to do, and have already decided on, they just wanna do it.

 

[Reynard]

Again, those are people who simply want simple linear adventure, with a direct method of dealing with something, that is not a railroad, because it is something they willing want to do, and have already decided on, they just wanna do it.

Being hung up on terminology this way, to the point that you are telling people they are wrong about their own experiences, is the thing that is problematic. You are so focused on your personal definition of and revulsion for railroads that you can't fathom someone using the term in a non-negative light. I think it would better serve discussion to acknowledge that other people are using the term differently, and move on, rather than doubling down and calling other people "extremely terrible."

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Again, those are people who simply want simple linear adventure,

no... I am make 2 distinct categories... Jimmy doesn't mind sandbox but prefers a more straight forward linear game... my ex brother in law wants a full railroad (I have met a few at cons too... they are rare but they are real)

with a direct method of dealing with something, that is not a railroad, because it is something they willing want to do, and have already decided on, they just wanna do it.

okay lets go back to my example where we HAD to sign up for the warrior contest and we HAD to win the contest and we HAD to take equipment we didn't want so someone could throw it over board and we could get attacked by sea life with that equipment just for us to get it back to have it taken by the captian... not 1 choice for 2 sessions mattered. We didn't even get to move ourselves freely in combat half the time... He was telling us a story not RPing a game... my Ex Brother in Law loved it... best game he had been in since joining our group.

HE LIKED RAILROADS

 

[GMforPowergamers]

we may not be able to all agree on where the line is... how much A can be in B before it is more A than B... but we should at least at the extremes understand what a sandbox/liner/railroad is (yes there are more like hex crawl)

 

[Reynard]

we may not be able to all agree on where the line is... how much A can be in B before it is more A than B... but we should at least at the extremes understand what a sandbox/liner/railroad is (yes there are more like hex crawl)

The interesting thing about the hexcrawl is that it is a mode of play built around discovery but it doesn't have to be open. That is to say, you can hexcrawl a linear path.

 

[FallenRX]

Being hung up on terminology this way, to the point that you are telling people they are wrong about their own experiences, is the thing that is problematic. You are so focused on your personal definition of and revulsion for railroads that you can't fathom someone using the term in a non-negative light. I think it would better serve discussion to acknowledge that other people are using the term differently, and move on, rather than doubling down and calling other people "extremely terrible."

Im sorry for being harsh about this, and i dont think your a terrible person nor is what your describing is terrible, its more the idea that Railroads=Linear adventures, is actively terrible and bad for all discourse on topics like this, because it leads to a fundemental misunderstanding of why railroads are bad, because they actively force players to do something they do not want to do, which is actively just bad and toxic, this confusion has lead you to use outright poor definitions that muddy the waters on a level that isnt good, and has caused very bad trains of thoughts that "linear adventures are bad" or "all linear adventures are railroads" that is actively toxic are all discussion on this matter, because of this fundamental misunderstanding, And i simply will push back again it in all forms to the absolute extreme.

no... I am make 2 distinct categories... Jimmy doesn't mind sandbox but prefers a more straight forward linear game... my ex brother in law wants a full railroad (I have met a few at cons too... they are rare but they are real)

okay lets go back to my example where we HAD to sign up for the warrior contest and we HAD to win the contest and we HAD to take equipment we didn't want so someone could throw it over board and we could get attacked by sea life with that equipment just for us to get it back to have it taken by the captian... not 1 choice for 2 sessions mattered. We didn't even get to move ourselves freely in combat half the time... He was telling us a story not RPing a game... my Ex Brother in Law loved it... best game he had been in since joining our group.

HE LIKED RAILROADS

Again, that is something he wanted to do, and actively didnt wish to do anything else, that is not a railroad, notice every time i say this, is when it is forced to do something they do not wish to do, or have no interest in, that is the fine line difference here that is fundamentally misunderstood.

to put it in my perspective you are basically saying "He wants do be forced to do something, he doesn't wanna do?" You see how abject nonsensical that is?