D&D General Sandbox Campaigns should have a Default Action.

[Scott Christian]

It is a combination of prepped NPCs, locations, groups, settlements, conflicts, maybe a vague possible future timeline of events in the setting (events like we would have in our own world), improv, extrapolation on existing material, chemistry between what the players choose to do and how the NPCs, monsters and other forces react to that. This isn't an either or situation. Sandboxes involve a lot of different elements to bring them to life.

There is a huge excluded middle in your argument. How rehearsed can it be if I have no idea what is going to happen, yet how can it be only described as improv if I also have prepared materials?

I beg to differ, quite profusely.

There is no huge middle ground. Every single thing you placed in your sandbox definition can happen in other people's definition of "railroad," "linear," hexcrawl," etc.

Of course there is an interplay between impromptu and rehearsed. I have never see a game where the DM has everything written down. That's because players make choices, and not all choices can be covered. So because the DM didn't write about the campsite on the way to the dungeon, but it was really cool because he made up a bunch of travelling tinkerers camping there. And instead of going to the dungeon, the players helped the tinkerers for a few days. Is this suddenly a sandbox?

It doesn't matter what the answer is becuase both answers are silly: Yes, now they are playing sandbox. No, in order for it to be sandbox it needs this and that.

You either prep or don't. Those are the only two styles that actually exist.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And what happens when these PCs start interacting with these people and place and things that have their own objectives (that you created by the way)? They can interact however they wish? Guess what? In a railroad they can to.

No one is asserting we didn't create these NPCs, NPC objectives or locations. They aren't all prepped in advance though. Sometimes NPCs emerge organically who you didn't plan on (ie. the player asks if there is a local apothecary and you have to come up with one or decide if there isn't one in town because they brought it up). Sometimes you have to flesh out NPCs more. And absolutely details will emerge that you didn't plan in advance unless your NPCs are pages long with details. Just in a basic conversation with an NPC players can ask all kinds of things about them you haven't thought off.

I don't know what happens until they start interacting. It depends on what they do. But yes, they can interact how they wish. I run the NPCs based on what I have down, but sometimes that changes if I realize knew things about them when I am running them. But again just because you can have an interaction with an NPC in a railroad, doesn't make a sandbox where the GM adapts to the players doing what they want to do, including going off to some random NPC and trying to make something happen, a railroad. I really don't know what else to say here. I think the difference between these two things is rather obvious.

 

[Scott Christian]

I think for it to be a true sandbox, you need both prepped material and impromptu, otherwise you are missing that essential element of players being able to do what they want in the sandbox. If they are only limited to what you've prepared, they don't really have freedom. It is more like a preprogrammed video game in that case. The advantage a human GM has is they can hear what the players are trying to do, beyond the details that have already been prepped and react and respond accordingly. That interaction is crucial to a sandbox IMO

Sorry Bedrock, I get what you are saying. I have played in many sandbox campaigns and linear campaigns. I have watched people play so called "sandbox" campaigns, and watched people play "linear" campaigns. In the end, I don't care - I am happy they are having fun.

But I do care when the community keeps using jargon that they themselves cannot define - even if they are watching it. And that's the point. If I give you the definition of a dog. Show you a dog. When you see a dog, you will be like - hey, that's a dog! I mean, just ask people if CR is a sandbox and watch the jargon junkies and couch RPG philosophers flood the answers. And none of them will agree. Ask the CR staff and they won't agree.

The reason - because it doesn't exist.

Now, prepping and not prepping do exist. And most of the time it is a mixture. I mean you even state that a sandbox needs prepped and impromptu. So does a linear adventure. There is no D&D campaign that is all prepped. It is literally impossible because the very nature of the game - player's choosing what they want to do.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I beg to differ, quite profusely.

There is no huge middle ground. Every single thing you placed in your sandbox definition can happen in other people's definition of "railroad," "linear," hexcrawl," etc.

Of course there is an interplay between impromptu and rehearsed. I have never see a game where the DM has everything written down. That's because players make choices, and not all choices can be covered. So because the DM didn't write about the campsite on the way to the dungeon, but it was really cool because he made up a bunch of travelling tinkerers camping there. And instead of going to the dungeon, the players helped the tinkerers for a few days. Is this suddenly a sandbox?

It doesn't matter what the answer is becuase both answers are silly: Yes, now they are playing sandbox. No, in order for it to be sandbox it needs this and that.

You either prep or don't. Those are the only two styles that actually exist.

Again you prep and you improv. And I don't think it is all that significant if individual things that can exist in a sandbox also can exist in other adventure structures. What makes the sandbox a sandbox is the players ability to go where they want, set goals for themselves, and interact with the setting freely. Now if that is happening in your linear adventure, maybe it has transformed into a sandbox, if only temporarily. But a sandbox is about trying to maintain that openness.

There is just a big difference between a game where you drop the players into a setting and let them do what they want, versus one where the expectation is they are given a quest to go on that follows a pretty clear path. There is definitely a difference between a railroad and freedom to do what you want because railroads are about constraining player freedom. Hex crawls can be pretty close to a sandbox, and a sandbox can certainly use hexes as part of its approach, but I don't think they are interchangeable (just adjacent to one another).

Dividing styles between prep and non just doesnt give anyone enough guidance on their options. What you prep is important to style, how much improv arises during play is important to style, how open a GM is to player suggestions or to their choices in game matters for style, how much of an expectants the players have of an adventure building to a final fight matters for style, whether adventures tend to follow a linear path, be more like a choose your own adventure, aim for full openness, or are structured around central mysteries or character conflict, all matter for style and structure.

Clearly sandbox is definable enough to the people who use that term. Like any term in gaming it is going to have its contested areas. That is normal.

 

[Reynard]

Now, prepping and not prepping do exist. And most of the time it is a mixture. I mean you even state that a sandbox needs prepped and impromptu. So does a linear adventure. There is no D&D campaign that is all prepped. It is literally impossible because the very nature of the game - player's choosing what they want to do.

Is a random encounter chart prepping?
If you run a pre-written adventure but do not read it before play, did you prep?
What is I ask a player a detail? Is that prep or impromptu? Does the answer change if they have been holding on to the answer for a while, or if it was based on the background they wrote up?
In other words: your insistence on only two truths, with no nuance, makes your argument easy to dismiss. You expect everyone else to embrace nuance in defining terms they use, but refuse with your pet theory.

 

[Scott Christian]

So I'll ask you the same question: what happens when a plot hook isn't taken up. Is it forgotten, solved by another force, or does it build and fester in the background until the problem becomes too big to ignore?

It's a good question. I didn't bring it up, so I am not really sure I can answer.

I can say sometimes people like these things to have consequences, other times they go away, and still other times they go away and resurface in a completely different time and place because the DM thought that resource looked cool. I've seen all ways work. I have seen them not work too. It just depends on the group and the chemistry.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Sorry Bedrock, I get what you are saying. I have played in many sandbox campaigns and linear campaigns. I have watched people play so called "sandbox" campaigns, and watched people play "linear" campaigns. In the end, I don't care - I am happy they are having fun.

But I do care when the community keeps using jargon that they themselves cannot define - even if they are watching it. And that's the point. If I give you the definition of a dog. Show you a dog. When you see a dog, you will be like - hey, that's a dog! I mean, just ask people if CR is a sandbox and watch the jargon junkies and couch RPG philosophers flood the answers. And none of them will agree. Ask the CR staff and they won't agree.

The reason - because it doesn't exist.

Expect plenty of people can define and identify a sandbox when they see it. But gaming always has different schools of thought and sandboxes are no exception. You are going to have slightly varied definitions just as you would have slightly varied definitions for something like a musical style (for some people the blues has a very rigid and clear set of parameters which you need to cleave to to truly playing the blues, but some people have a much more open approach where it is more about employing certain line cliches and leaning on blues pentatonic scales).

Sandbox is widely used and widely understood. But defining any term, especially if someone is set on ripping apart is difficult to do to complete satisfaction. People can't even agree on a definition of roleplaying games for example but they most certainly exist. It is just in these discussions about meanings of terms, there are genuine disagreements about precise meaning and there are often clashes over style too that enter into term debates.

Now, prepping and not prepping do exist. And most of the time it is a mixture. I mean you even state that a sandbox needs prepped and impromptu. So does a linear adventure. There is no D&D campaign that is all prepped.

By your logic then there is no such thing as a prepped game. All games ultimately rely on impromptu material no matter how much you prep in advance. And anything that exists in a prepped game, also can exist in an impromptu game. So the division is meaningless. There are just games. That is all there is.

It is literally impossible because the very nature of the game - player's choosing what they want to do.

Players choosing what they want to do is the heart of play, but how much of a choice they have, what kinds of choices they have, what their expectations are in terms of what the GM brings to the table and how, those are all dependent on different styles and approaches like sandbox, adventure path, monster hunts, situational adventures, investigations, etc.

 

[Reynard]

Players choosing what they want to do is the heart of play, but how much of a choice they have, what kinds of choices they have, what their expectations are in terms of what the GM brings to the table and how, those are all dependent on different styles and approaches like sandbox, adventure path, monster hunts, situational adventures, investigations, etc.

I just wanted to quote this ^^^ so it didn't get lost in the otherwise pretty silly argument.

Agency is the reason we play TTRPGs instead of other types of games, but there are wide preferences for how that agency is expressed, not just from game to game but from group to group and player to player.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, just ask people if CR is a sandbox and watch the jargon junkies and couch RPG philosophers flood the answers. And none of them will agree. Ask the CR staff and they won't agree.

I have only looked at this book once so I can't really say for sure about it. My impression is it has a lot of sandbox elements. Sandboxes are a little tricky to package because it is more than just having that prepped material, it is also about how the GM runs it, how they make choices, etc. When you have a team of people working on something you sometimes get disagreement over that kind of thing (and it may well be a mixture as a result)

 

[Scott Christian]

No one is asserting we didn't create these NPCs, NPC objectives or locations. They aren't all prepped in advance though. Sometimes NPCs emerge organically who you didn't plan on (ie. the player asks if there is a local apothecary and you have to come up with one or decide if there isn't one in town because they brought it up).

Same thing happens in a linear adventure.

Sometimes you have to flesh out NPCs more. And absolutely details will emerge that you didn't plan in advance unless your NPCs are pages long with details. Just in a basic conversation with an NPC players can ask all kinds of things about them you haven't thought off.

Just like a linear adventure.

I don't know what happens until they start interacting. It depends on what they do.

Like almost all encounters in a linear adventure.

But yes, they can interact how they wish. I run the NPCs based on what I have down, but sometimes that changes if I realize knew things about them when I am running them. But again just because you can have an interaction with an NPC in a railroad, doesn't make a sandbox where the GM adapts to the players doing what they want to do, including going off to some random NPC and trying to make something happen, a railroad. I really don't know what else to say here. I think the difference between these two things is rather obvious.

Sorry, but this happens in all games, be it adventure paths, linear adventures, hexcrawls, etc. My humble and sincere suggestion: go back and read your qualifications for a sandbox. Then see if those same qualifications aren't in all other styles.

I stand by my claim. There are two styles: prepped and not prepped. Most of the time it is a mixture of the two.