D&D General Sandbox Campaigns should have a Default Action.

[Reynard]

Im sorry for being harsh about this, and i dont think your a terrible person nor is what your describing is terrible, its more the idea that Railroads=Linear adventures, is actively terrible and bad for all discourse on topics like this, because it leads to a fundemental misunderstanding of why railroads are bad, because they actively force players to do something they do not want to do, which is actively just bad and toxic, this confusion has lead you to use outright poor definitions that muddy the waters on a level that isnt good, and has caused very bad trains of thoughts that "linear adventures are bad" or "all linear adventures are railroads" that is actively toxic are all discussion on this matter, because of this fundamental misunderstand, And i simply will push back again it in all forms to the absolute extreme.

Let's compromise and use "rollercoaster" instead: it's a railroad with consent!

 

[Mannahnin]

Being hung up on terminology this way, to the point that you are telling people they are wrong about their own experiences, is the thing that is problematic. You are so focused on your personal definition of and revulsion for railroads that you can't fathom someone using the term in a non-negative light. I think it would better serve discussion to acknowledge that other people are using the term differently, and move on, rather than doubling down and calling other people "extremely terrible."

Eh. I'm kind of on board, though. Railroad is a negative term. I get that some players use it in a non-negative sense, and I'm not going to freak out over that, but I don't think it's an accurate usage.

Linear is a non-pejorative term for this kind of adventure (or rollercoaster, if you like). Railroad as a distinct term has meaning, an adventure or approach in which the DM actively stymies player choice and agency. That story @GMforPowergamers just related about the seagoing campaign was a railroad, and that's something distinct from a mere linear adventure, which players can enjoy simply riding along for.

 

[FallenRX]

Let's compromise and use "rollercoaster" instead: it's a railroad with consent!

thats fine

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Again, that is something he wanted to do, and actively didnt wish to do anything else, that is not a railroad, notice every time i say this, is when it is forced to do something they do not wish to do, or have no interest in, that is the fine line difference here that is fundamentally misunderstood.

he did not agree to the contest of champions anymore then the rest of us. He did not choose that or the armor, or the weapon... he would have been just as happy with the king just hiring us, or us just anything else. he got on the railroad and that was it.

to put it in my perspective you are basically saying "He wants do be forced to do something, he doesn't wanna do?" You see how abject nonsensical that is?

except nothing about a railroad requires him not to want it... because again some people WANT to ride the rails

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That story @GMforPowergamers just related about the seagoing campaign was a railroad, and that's something distinct from a mere linear adventure, which players can enjoy simply riding along for.

yes... when you get told what your character does, when the ending of the fight (weather you win or lose) is decided by the DM before the session starts that is a railroad....

 

[Maxperson]

Some do. I have GMed some. Often it is when they wan tto experience a story. It is a totally valid way to play RPGs. It's the tabletop equivalent of the Uncharted games.

Yeah. I always use the example of one of my players. He wanted to both give me a break because I was burning out a bit and try his hand at DMing. He got an adventure path and then during session zero said, "Guys, this is my first time DMing and I wanted to ask if you guys would just stick to the module. I know you can handle it well when we go flying out to some other city to try and find something out(talking to me), but I'm not confident that I can do that and it's going to be all that I can handle right now just to do this." Or something close to that. We of course understood and agreed to stick to that storyline and not deviate.

The question becomes, is that really a railroad if we agree to it? I've since come to believe no. It's just a linear adventure or maybe not linear, but it has confines that we agreed to as players. That's different that the DM removing our agency(choice) in some manner and just making sure we stayed in those bounds for his own reasons.

 

[Maxperson]

I am looking forward to the explanation as to how these things are completely unalike, as opposed to a mild variation in tone and/or consent.

I don't view the bolded part as mild. If I haven't consented, it's a betrayal of my trust and the game to railroad me. I view railroading as universally bad, where linear or agreeing to confines is not railroading.

 

[Reynard]

I don't view the bolded part as mild. If I haven't consented, it's a betrayal of my trust and the game to railroad me. I view railroading as universally bad, where linear or agreeing to confines is not railroading.

I am fine with reserving "railroad" as bad if we use "rollercoaster" as positive. I don't think "linear" quite does it, though. That is its own thing. But -- terminology: it can be a pain.

 

[payn]

I am fine with reserving "railroad" as bad if we use "rollercoaster" as positive. I don't think "linear" quite does it, though. That is its own thing. But -- terminology: it can be a pain.

Im totally good with linear as the good, and railroad as the bad. Most folks are actually.

 

[Maxperson]

I am fine with reserving "railroad" as bad if we use "rollercoaster" as positive. I don't think "linear" quite does it, though. That is its own thing. But -- terminology: it can be a pain.

Rollercoasters are linear. I don't think either does it, because the confines agreed to might not be linear. If say you agree to stay inside the confines of Adventure Land instead of all of Disneyland, that would be part of this sort of agreement, but it's not linear/railroad, because you can pick and choose which rides to go on and when within those confines.

 

[Reynard]

Rollercoasters are linear. I don't think either does it, because the confines agreed to might not be linear. If say you agree to stay inside the confines of Adventure Land instead of all of Disneyland, that would be part of this sort of agreement, but it's not linear/railroad, because you can pick and choose which rides to go on and when within those confines.

A theme park isn't the same thing as a railroad or a traditional sandbox. It is a 'sandbox" that only reacts to the players (as opposed to existingregardlessofthem), like Rime of the Frostmaiden.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Arn't 'Adventure Paths' the way to refer to a pre set adventure nowadays?

 

[Scott Christian]

Welcome to reality. It doesn't work like that.

Well, in truth, we are not talking metaphysics or quantum theories here. We are talking about a game.

People can agree on what a cell is. That is pretty complex. They can agree on what a star is. That is incredibly complex. They can agree on what a plant is, what an animal is, a mammal, fish, rocks, soccer, baseball, basketball, swimming, polio, cancer, etc. All of these things are incredibly complex - yet there are agreed definitions.

I am neither discussing the reality that morality can be grey, nor am I discussing the reality of the complexity of interpersonal or intrapersonal relationships. I am discussing a game. So it shouldn't be that difficult to define, unless of course, it really doesn't exist.

 

[payn]

Arn't 'Adventure Paths' the way to refer to a pre set adventure nowadays?

Can be. Typically an adventure path is a campaign with a centered plot theme. Module is what Id call something that only lasts a few levels.

 

[Scott Christian]

most likely the way this would run at my game is we talk between the end of game 7 and in between game 7 and 8 and I am working 100% on the thieves guild... I draw up a map, or some stats (assuming I didn't have them already incase they did it game 6 when they took a different lead) my player then go off on some tangent... maybe they forget they are looking for her, maybe they decided to switch to giving the crazy kids a chance... or maybe they just get distracted because that one house has a red roof.

THAT is why I doubt anyone would describe my games as linar... because I can give some guesses but I never know for sure what is going to happen until we get to game. My hours of prep are all so I have things when they go left.

That is exactly how the last campaign I played in went. Let the DM know a future move, DM preps, and then see where it leads. That is also exactly how Saltmarsh ran when I was a player. The only difference is the DM stitched together using a greater amount from the books. That is also how I ran my last campaign, even though the story arc was sketched out with alternate endings.

 

[Scott Christian]

To that end: one mental exercise I enjoy going through and has relevance to sandbox design is imagining how the presence of a major monster (like a dragon) impacts the area. Not just the danger of the dragon itself, but how it changes politics, economics and society.

Oh, thats a good one. The answer changes big time depending on what system you are using.

It definitely depends on the dragon, right.
We had a copper dragon in our last campaign that was mischievous, and would intermingle with the politics, if only to watch them for entertainment.
As DM, I have three small kingdoms (small) that triangulate on a lake. They use the mountains to mine, the lake to fish, and the forest to craft. Their big three exports. (The lake is a headwater that drains to the ocean.) There is a dragon halting their trade across the lake, therefore, making them use the roads around the lake. It has created quite a bit of havoc; from sailors willing to risk it to haul iron across the lake, to bandits popping up on the roads that were once rarely used, to creatures coming down off the mountain to escape the dragon and interfering with the road.
Here is a map.

 

[Scott Christian]

Can they decide to leave that hub and all those paths behind to say go to Chult to dig in ruins for treasures of a lost civilization? If yes, then it sounds like a sandbox. If no, then it's not a sandbox. It's a box. A large box if it has that much in it, but a box none the less.

Just as an aside, I never really understood why sandbox games that are all about the freedom to go anywhere and do anything are called sandbox. Sandboxes are limited in size. You can't leave that square area of sand and still be in it.

Sorry if I was not clear. The players can choose to do what they want, including leave the story for a different story.

 

[Scott Christian]

A Railroad is when they are specifically forced to do something with no other options.

Sorry, and not sure I want to do this. But can you define "options" here?

 

[Scott Christian]

we may not be able to all agree on where the line is... how much A can be in B before it is more A than B... but we should at least at the extremes understand what a sandbox/liner/railroad is (yes there are more like hex crawl)

My contention is that they are all so similar, and once in play, there is no difference.

THAT SAID, I appreciate you and @Reynard and @Maxperson and others for having the discussion with me. It is appreciated, even if we don't agree. (And in truth, I still feel the sway of wanting to categorize that way. But when I look at the play, in game, there seems to be no difference. - to me. I get it though, I am outlier. But still, thanks for having the discussion.)

Now about that dragon...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sorry, and not sure I want to do this. But can you define "options" here?

the strictness was the "you have to sign up for the kings contest of warriors"
the most lax was "please, I gave you 7 possible stores in the south east and west... please don't go north"

but somewhere between would be the guy who already know what the adventure will be, how it will begin and end, and nothing you do can change it... In my own past "You got told you had to get the 5 swords, but taking 3 or more weaken the seal and a bigger threat is freed... so no matter what happens you lose"

a more resent example is in curse of strahd... You enter brovirah in one place you have SOME sandbox to it (especially in the middle of it in the big city) but there is a lot of linear... and some of it is a bit on rails