Spelljammer [Spelljammer] Illithid to Remain "100% bad guys" -- Neogi maybe not?

[Weiley31]

I think that if they address the Unhuman Wars, it won't be so black and white. The Orcs/Scro/Goblins won't be solely the "bad guys", and the Elven Imperial Navy (aka Astral Elves) won't be the "good guys".

Elven Propaganda.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I just thought it was interesting he was willing with name illithid and beholders but not noegi has "100% bad guys." I wonder what's worse, from the perspective of someone who cares about such things: a race of evil slavers the PCs have to fight, or a single non-evil member of a race of slavers the PCs have to deal with?

I don't think there's really a better/worse there.

Personally I think the real issue is whether they just sort of "wimp out" on Neogi by quietly removing their "slaver" aspect. I'm fine with Neogi being complex beings, not all of whom are terrifying psychopaths, but the entire setup of Neogi, like the basic concept is "They believe all other beings (including other Neogi) are property". That should at the very least be "the rule" for Neogi (rather than "the exception").

Neogi

The neogi were a race of spider-like creatures.[4] They were ruthless, xenophobic slavers and plunderers, hated in all known crystal spheres.[5] Neogi were small eight-legged creatures, the adults no bigger than a small child. They had a head with reflective eyes that sat upon a long eel-like...

forgottenrealms.fandom.com

So if you make them, as a whole, no longer believe that, well, what you've got there is something like looks like a Neogi, and is called a Neogi, but fundamentally isn't a Neogi, just like an Illithid who didn't need to eat brains wouldn't be an Illithid (again, I'd be fine with an Illithid who was trying not to eat living brains or something, but don't make so Illithids can subsist just fine on bran flakes or something).

Also, sheesh, if you're going to make Neogi non-psycho, make them playable! Don't make them non-psycho and non-playable, sheesh!

 

[delericho]

This article from Polygon talks about giving warnings to your players about clowns and spiders. In addition, Polygon asked Crawford if the Neogi were getting to get any "massaging" to tone down their evilness. The answer was... interesting. Crawford did not respond specifically regarding neogi

Assuming they're wanting to excise the slavery aspect, I might be inclined to make Neogi ruthless gourmands who love to feast on humanoid flesh - that way they still have motivation to hunt people down, they'll still be almost universally hated, but they probably won't be quite as much of a hot button issue.

, but did say illithids and beholders would remain evil, but some races would get the "I, Borg" treatment -- explicitly calling out Vampirates. Given that slavery has been a bit of a hot button, I will be curious to see where WotC lands of the space spider-eel slave traders.

I'm actually a little disappointed at the answer re:Illithids. One of the more interesting aspects of the original Spelljammer was the ambiguity surrounding that race - it wasn't quite as obvious as before that they were monolithically evil. They're very much the Vorlons of the setting.

 

[delericho]

I think that if they address the Unhuman Wars, it won't be so black and white. The Orcs/Scro/Goblins won't be solely the "bad guys", and the Elven Imperial Navy (aka Astral Elves) won't be the "good guys".

The original was already like that - it was very strongly implied that the elves weren't the good guys in that fight. (Which isn't entirely the same as saying the orcs & goblins weren't bad guys...)

 

[Reynard]

I'm actually a little disappointed at the answer re:Illithids. One of the more interesting aspects of the original Spelljammer was the ambiguity surrounding that race - it wasn't quite as obvious as before that they were monolithically evil. They're very much the Vorlons of the setting.

I was never into Spelljammer, so I am kind of excited to explore it with this set. That said, I really like my squid headed mind raping brain eaters to be capital-E Evil.

 

[darjr]

Or maybe it’s Neogi propaganda!

 

[Voadam]

The original was already like that - it was very strongly implied that the elves weren't the good guys in that fight. (Which isn't entirely the same as saying the orcs & goblins weren't bad guys...)

A lot of the monstrous compendium entries support this view.

 

[Reynard]

A lot of the monstrous compendium entries support this view.

While I am generally pro "unambiguous evil races" I think "Planejammer" might be one place where it makes a lot of sense to push nuance and different factions.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Maybe the Neogi are getting the Markab treatment?

They're not going to be made not-evil, they are going to be made extinct.

So, whose flying those spider-ships? Maybe their rebellious umber hulk ex-slaves?

 

[Quickleaf]

My take on neogi back in 2e was that their culture of "owning other beings" wasn't aspirational – from the neogi mindset it was as if it were a deep embedded truth already true, and their "property" was out there running amok across the worlds. So when a neogi would be encountered they would say things like "why does this dwarf not kneel as my table? such barbarism that tables do not know their place on your world" or "you have been wandering in pursuit of 'freedom', elf, but look at the tragedy that has followed you - surely the price of this illusion you seek is too steep?"

I had a very particular voice and body language for neogi that made them... like sleazy click-clacking landlords trying to convince you why you actually didn't detest the moldy rat-ridden walls. Rather than being directly offensively slave-taking, they were like patient predatory philosophers trying to talk their "property" into the fold.