D&D 5E "Doom Sun" − reconstructing a 5e Dark Sun setting for the DMs Guild

[Charlaquin]

There are two 2e Dark Sun settings, 1991 and 1995. I try to distinguish because they are nonidentical.

Yes. IIRC the 1995 version takes into account the sweeping changes made to the 1991 version by the Prism Pentad novels.

Any chance of a brief summary of the changes?

 

[pukunui]

Any chance of a brief summary of the changes?

By the end of the novel series, Borys the dragon and several of the sorcerer-kings had been killed. Rajaat had been freed and then re-imprisoned in/as some kind of never-ending storm. Tyr was now the "Free City" because it didn't have a sorcerer-king. The "revised and expanded" box set from 1995 also included some areas beyond the Tablelands as well as some revised mechanics for psionics and stuff. I think it also had a generally more hopeful outlook to the setting than the grimdark look of the original.

Interestingly, I just found an article in which one of Dark Sun's original creators says he always imagined it as a setting that never had any actual gods. (Source) EDIT: That article also states that WotC invited Brom to contribute art to the 4e books but he declined!

 

[humble minion]

Any chance of a brief summary of the changes?

Whoooo boy.

The Prism Pentad kills off about half the original sorcerer-kings (though a few others, like Dregoth, Daskinor, Oronis got added in later) and Borys the Dragon. Evil boss guy who created the sorcerer-kings is briefly released and then locked up again. The whole Tyr valley region is now subject to ferocious periodic thunderstorms, Ur Draxa is now a ruin. And then the game line as a whole flails around a bit trying to find new bad guys for the setting (githyanki, Dregoth, the Mind Lords, biotech halflings, the Order...), given that the fiction off-handedly disposed of the original setting nemeses.

 

[Charlaquin]

By the end of the novel series, Borys the dragon and several of the sorcerer-kings had been killed. Rajaat had been freed and then killed as well. Tyr was now the "Free City" because it didn't have a sorcerer-king. The "revised and expanded" box set from 1995 also included some areas beyond the Tablelands as well as some revised mechanics for psionics and stuff. I think it also had a generally more hopeful outlook to the setting than the grimdark look of the original.

Interestingly, I just found an article in which one of Dark Sun's original creators says he always imagined it as a setting that never had any actual gods. (Source) EDIT: That article also states that WotC invited Brom to contribute art to the 4e books but he declined!

Interesting. Pretty cool that the 4e adaptation picked a point within that metaplot to use as its status quo (right after Kalak’s death).

 

[humble minion]

Interesting. Pretty cool that the 4e adaptation picked a point within that metaplot to use as its status quo (right after Kalak’s death).

Yeah, that was one of the best decisions that 4e DS made in my opinion. And probably one of the bravest, considering how rare it'd been up to that point in D&D history for lore to just be explicitly retconned. The Prism Pentad was pretty widely reviled for having NPCs upend the setting completely almost immediately after it was released, and the 4e step towards allowing the PCs to be the big players in the sandbox was very welcome. Having it set post-Kalak also made Tyr a bit safer environment for beginning PCs, and gave the PCs a (profoundly flawed and unstable) home base to work for and defend.

Just a smart, practical, player-focused creative decision all round, really.

 

[Yaarel]

The bolded is the important word there of course.

In the era of the sorcerer-kings etc, Dark Sun is nontheistic. Many many ages ago in-world, Athas perhaps was theistic, though by the Athasian present day, that's unbelievably ancient and forgotten history. And the lore is mostly silent on whether these ancient gods of Athas were regular D&D-type gods who granted spells etc at all, or whether they were religions based purely around faith without magic etc being involved.

Fair enough about the grammar parsing. And, the original Dark Sun doesnt really explore the cosmology of the world. Plus, there are stray contradictions here and there about cosmology.

Nevertheless, I resent the gods of other settings intruding into a setting where they conceptually dont belong. I dont want a cosmology that can make that intrusion possible.

To be clear, when a DM and players want to transport their characters from one setting to an other, they can and should do that. It helps to give the DM advice for how to go about it. But it is the same as inserting a character that thematically doesnt belong in a setting, like a forest gnome it a Dark Sun city. Of course a DM can do it, but officially it is a nonstandard variant. For certain settings, the standard makes a mix impossible.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My group (including myself) are all new to D&D, compared to most people on this forum. We've only played 5e and never played Dark Sun, but we all know quite a bit about Athas and would absolutely play a campaign in Dark Sun if it were translated to 5e. We like the setting so much that we're considering buying the 4e books and learning the system just to play in the setting.

If they changed the setting to make the destruction of the world not the fault of the people of the planet or got rid of the importance of psionics, or made any other major like that, we would hate the changes and probably not play the 5e version.

I know there's a lot of other newer players that have never played but also would be pissed off by changes like that.

Yeah I kind of assumed one of the reasons it was popular with newer players was its relevance, so I'm not surprised but definitely glad to hear that!

 

[Shardstone]

DARK SUN RELIGIONS

The 2e Dark Sun setting features three religions. They compare to reallife sacred systems. All Dark Sun religions are elemental, whether directly or indirectly. The four elements are earth, water, air, and fire, plus their harmonizing each other in a holistic Positivity.

• The Clerics regard the four elements as sacred, in a monism, where their interactive Positivity is a transcendental fundament of reality.
• The Druids adhere to animism, which counts the local features of nature as members of ones own sacred community, and thereby welcomes elemental beings as family members.
• The Templars are Anti-Clerics: their power of Negativity comes from defiling the elements, via a variety of polytheism that worships the defilers, viewing these mortals as gods, who compare to "god kings", such as Caesar, Alexander the Great, and Pharaoh.

Of interest here is to make sense of the elemental, nontheistic, monism of the Clerics.

2e ELEMENTAL CLERICS
The Clerics organize into four sacred communities. Each dedicates themselves to one of the four elements: earth, water, air, and fire. Each is an ancient way of life.

The sacred worldview reminds me somewhat of reallife Daoism, where yang and yin are two sacred elements that all existence is made out of. The goal of Daoism is the dao, which is neither the yang nor the yin, but rather is the holistic, lifegiving, harmony when yang and yin optimize between each other. In the Dark Sun fantasy setting, the four elements are the sacred elements that all material existence is made out of. The goal of the Dark Sun Clerics is the Positivity, which is neither of these four elements, but rather is the holistic, lifegiving, harmony when all four optimize between each other.

Toward harmony, each sacred community attunes themselves to one of the four elements. There is an earth community, a water community, an air community, and a fire community. Each community, as a community, optimizes between the other communities − to empower each others strengths and to cover for each others weaknesses. They become the reconnection of all four elements together, into a harmony that allows Positivity to happen.

All material things are made out of the elements. But the Positivity is not any of these things. The Positivity "transcends" each of these things. The Positivity is no thing.

But one can encounter Positivity, indirectly. When the elements are dysfunctional, and all things are dying, wilting, and disintegrating, the Positivity is palpably absent. But when the four elements are functional, all things sprout life, growth, and healing, the Positivity is palpably present. The wellbeing is measurable. The "Positive Energy" is in itself immaterial, yet one can measure it in terms of the degrees of the wellness of things.

Each of the four clerical communities in the Dark Sun setting attunes an element. When connecting to the essence of the element − namely, its level of being, its plane of existence − the Cleric becomes one with each and every instance of the elemental matter. By attending all four elements, the communities, together, attune all existence. But the goal is the Positivity.

The elements are sacred paths. The Positivity is the destination. The Clerics seek an elemental harmony that unlocks Positivity to energize the entire planet − indeed the entire universe − with infinite, holy, lifegiving, energy that opens up a finite closed system to new and wondrous possibilities. As the finite system expands, it becomes able to benefit and utilize even more Positivity. Positivity is an open system.

The elemental monism is "mono-ism", the oneness. The infinite Positivity unites, forms, constitutes, and comprises all finite elements.

TRANSLATING 2e DARK SUN INTO 5e DOOM SUN
According to the 5e gaming jargon, the Dark Sun monism views the Positivity with its system of four elements as "cosmic forces". The four states of matter together as Positivity cause the cosmos to exist.

Xanathars Guide to Everything (page 18) describes briefly and well the impersonal sacred principle of a "cosmic power". It is personal in the sense that one oneself participates, but impersonal in the sense that one doesnt rely on an other person to achieve it instead of oneself. Re the game rules.

"
SERVING A FORCE
In certain campaigns, a cleric might instead serve a cosmic force, such as life or death, or a philosophy or concept, such as love, peace, or one of the nine alignments. Talk with your DM about the divine options available in your campaign, whether they're cosmic forces. Whatever thing your cleric ends up serving, choose a Divine domain that is appropriate for it, and if it doesn’t have a holy symbol, work with your DM to design one. The Cleric class features often refer to your "deity". If you are devoted to a "cosmic force", your Cleric features still work for you as written. Think of the references as references to the divine thing you serve that gives you your magic.

"

I appreciate this definition of the Cleric class as dedicating to a "cosmic force". It gets so many things right. Actually, any deity is itself a kind of cosmic force, albeit a personal one. The "force" is the essence of what the Cleric class is about.

To focus on a particular force is more concrete, than a 3e existentialist belief in belief. A force results in a fantasy sacred tradition that tracks with reallife nontheistic sacred traditions. For example, I compared the fantasy monism with reallife Daoism as one example, but there are many examples across cultures.

5e describes a sacred "service". The sacred community are dedicating their lives in the service of a greater cause. The Dark Sun Clerics have dedicated their lives to literally "saving the world" by means of infusing their planet Athas with Positivity. Positivity empowers their healing spells and other divine powers.

The Positivity is an abstract kind of "divinity", the divine presence that exists in all things that exist.

5e Alignments
I view the alignment of the clerical sacred way of life as Neutral Good. Good is self-evidently altruistic: save each other and the world. There is a Lawful component: collectivist group-orientation, order, community. But the goal of "harmony" is a Chaotic component. The goal is to fully empower each element so it can attain maximal power, autonomy, and health, in its own unique way. By extension, each individual of a sacred community seeks to fully empower the other to become the best version of own oneself. The Neutral Good optimizes between Lawful and Chaotic to attain a harmony of maximal Good.

The ideology itself is Neutral Good, but individuals in a community can be any alignment. Community members of a clerical community are "Typically Neutral Good". But there might exist a place where a Lawful (Evil) adherent embraces an ideology that is extremistly oppressive against dissent. Oppositely, there might exist a place where a Chaotic (Evil) adherent embraces an ideology that is predatorially exploitative and opportunistic, and manipulating the "system" toward self-serving ends. Both of these abuses assault the "harmony" of Positivity, but one can see how it might happen.

DOOM SUN
5e can do Dark Sun religions in a meaningful way.

Mechanically, the solution enjoys consensus: four new Cleric domains, each one dedicates to one of the four elements. The domain grants the necessary access to elemental spells, plus thematic elemental class features.

Perhaps Earth and Water Clerics are like the strong melee War Cleric, while the Air and Fire Clerics are like the range casting Light Cleric. But each element has its own thematic mechanics.

Narratively, Positivity is the cosmic force that is in "its" self, a kind of divinity. Each element is a "path" in the service of Positivity. These are the sacred forces that the Dark Sun Clerics cherish.

There's an easier way to do this. Make backgrounds of the four elements, and make a 1st and 4th level feat. THen yo ucan be any domain, and you achieve that domain through use of an element. You are the Knowledge of Water, the War of Flame, the Trickery of Air, the Life of Earth. Much cleaner imo

 

[Shardstone]

And ofc make the feats free at 1st and 4th level.

 

[Maxperson]

There are two 2e Dark Sun settings, 1991 and 1995. I try to distinguish because they are nonidentical.

The original setting of 1991 is categorical. It presents as fact: "Athas is a world without deities."

The sorcerer kings can pretend to be deities, and in the sense of granting divine spells actually are "godlike". "But, they are not gods." The claims are false.

Regarding the obscure local traditions, the folkbelief uses terms like "mysterious beings" or "demigods". The terms themselves show clearly they are not "gods", but rather "godlike".

Examples of a "mysterious being" might be a powerful elemental, a "demigod" a magically transformed human; or whatever. Not gods.

That quote was from the 1991 version. It IS a world without deities. It was not so at its origin. It had gods at one point.