D&D 5E "Doom Sun" − reconstructing a 5e Dark Sun setting for the DMs Guild

Yaarel

Mind Mage
There isnt exactly a consensus, but there seems to be a general understanding of where the contours of disputes are.

• 2e Dark Sun, Athas, has never had gods, past or future.
• The classic setting has two different eras, original published in 1991, and an other in the aftermath of novels, published in 1995.
• Nevertheless 4e altered the Dark Sun setting, assimilating it into the axis cosmology "Dawn War" "gods".

• 4e alterations of Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms can be "fixed" in 5e.
• Oppositely, 2e Dark Sun has "temples" to retcon FR "gods" into it.

• 5e Fyreen in Doomspace is officially "not Athas", not Dark Sun.
• 5e Fyreen describes the Dawn War, and reputes genocidal gods against Fyreen.
• The socalled "gods" (namely the denizens of the FR/astral dominions) destroyed the crystal sphere, and apparently the sun.

• 5e Athas does not yet officially exist.

• Athas and Fyreen share commonalities, possibly similar cultures.
• There seems an interest in the planet of Fyreen borrowing from the classic Dark Sun setting to populate its setting, that now contends with apparently genocial "gods".
• 5e already supplies some official support for Dark Sun 5e conversions, such as the thri-kreen race, and unlocking the term "defile".

• The Dark Sun conversions into 5e can also support players who want to play in the classic Dark Sun setting of godless Athas.
 
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Yaarel

Mind Mage
As far as I can tell, you are the only that has suggested the FR gods are a part of or have been suggested as a part of Dark Sun. Not all D&D gods are FR gods.
To be clear, when I say "Forgotten Realms gods", I mean that these "gods" factually exist in the 5e Forgotten Realms setting. These astrals destroyed the crystal sphere of Doomspace and can easily violate Realmsspace too.
 


To be clear, when I say "Forgotten Realms gods", I mean that these "gods" factually exist in the 5e Forgotten Realms setting. These astrals destroyed the crystal sphere of Doomspace and can easily violate Realmsspace too.
Use Planescape Gods then, cause we could just as easily say instead then Greyhawk or Dragonlance Gods.
 

dave2008

Legend
• 1e-2e Dark Sun, Athas, has never had gods, past or future.
There was no 1e Dark Sun. IIRC it started in 2e.
• Nevertheless 4e altered the Dark Sun setting, assimilating it into the axis cosmology "Dawn War" "gods".
Though not published in 3e, 3e presupposed all settings as being part of a shared multiverse. So DS would have had gods in some sense, even if they never had any contact with the planet. But yes, 4e was more explicit and actually updated the setting. I just wanted to point out the the assimilation of settings was standard for 3e and 4e was just following in its foot steps. Additionally, this process started in 2e.
• 4e alterations of Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms can be "fixed" in 5e.
That is an opinion, sure.
• Oppositely, 1e-2e Dark Sun has "temples" to retcon FR "gods" into it.
Again, not 1e and not FR gods. Temples yes, but that can easily be treated in an Eberron fashion.
• 5e Fyreen in Doomspace is officially "not Athas", not Dark Sun.
That is true. And?
• 5e Fyreen describes the Dawn War, and reputes genocidal gods against Fyreen.
Do you call it genocide when you step on an ant hill? But yes, generally speaking.
• The socalled "gods" (namely the denizens of the FR/astral dominions) destroyed the crystal sphere, and apparently the sun.
No, there is no evidence presented that the gods involved in the destruction of the crystal sphere were the FR gods. What is your obsession with making everything a FR god? Also, the destruction of the sun is ambiguous IIRC.
• 5e Athas does not yet officially exist.
This is 100% true. And?
• Athas and Fyreen share commonalities, possibly similar cultures.
OK, that seems to be the case.
• There seems an interest in the planet of Fyreen borrowing from the classic Dark Sun setting to populate its setting, that now contends with apparently genocial "gods".
It appears from the text that gods no longer have any part of Fyreen and they are not worshipped. At this point they are probably a myth more than anything else. So I would say no, it does not "contend" with gods (genocidal or otherwise).
• 5e already supplies some official support for Dark Sun 5e conversions, such as the thri-kreen race, and unlocking the term "defile".
OK, that sounds correct. However, we don't know what will be unlocked on the DMsGuild until they tell us. It is possible that "defilers" may not be a part of it. It is also possible, though I doubt it, that they unlock Dark Sun in addition to Doomspace.
• The Dark Sun conversions into 5e can also support players who want to play in the classic Dark Sun setting of godless Athas.
Absolutely. You can play a godless version of any D&D setting really. However, you cannot official convert Dark Sun yet. Doomspace =/= Dark Sun
 

dave2008

Legend
To be clear, when I say "Forgotten Realms gods", I mean that these "gods" factually exist in the 5e Forgotten Realms setting. These astrals destroyed the crystal sphere of Doomspace and can easily violate Realmsspace too.
I guess I find it a bit offense that you attribute this to FR gods when we have no evidence of such. We have no idea if these gods existing in FR. Gods exist in the D&D multiverse, but all gods are not part of all settings.

EDIT to be even a bit more clear:
We have no idea if the gods that destroyed Doomspace know anything about Realmspace or Realmspace gods? Do the gods of Theros know anything about FR gods? It doesn't seem like they do. You are making a lot of assumptions that are not needed
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
To be clear, when I say "Forgotten Realms gods", I mean that these "gods" factually exist in the 5e Forgotten Realms setting. These astrals destroyed the crystal sphere of Doomspace and can easily violate Realmsspace too.
Where? There is only one FR pantheon list(it's in the PHB) and those gods aren't on it.
 

Should also point out that even back in 2e the gods existed even if they were not involved with Dark Sun. Dark Sun was explicitly part of Planescape and Spelljammer. Though it was not easily reached or left. And general opinion from Sigilites was that it was a craphole and not worth visiting.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
To be clear, when I say "Forgotten Realms gods", I mean that these "gods" factually exist in the 5e Forgotten Realms setting. These astrals destroyed the crystal sphere of Doomspace and can easily violate Realmsspace too.
But would they? Now, I haven't read the scan of the text on the Doomsphere (waiting for my book to arrive... tomorrow or the next day, hopefully), but do the conditions that existed there, prior to whatever caused the gods to destroy the sphere, also exist in other worlds?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
But would they? Now, I haven't read the scan of the text on the Doomsphere (waiting for my book to arrive... tomorrow or the next day, hopefully), but do the conditions that existed there, prior to whatever caused the gods to destroy the sphere, also exist in other worlds?
It doesn't really matter if the conditions exist elsewhere or not, the claim is that the gods that destroyed Doomspace are in the Forgotten Realms. I see zero evidence of that.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
There was no 1e Dark Sun. IIRC it started in 2e.
Correct. I had the two separate 2e versions in mind, published in 1991 and 1995. I appreciate the catch.

Though not published in 3e, 3e presupposed all settings as being part of a shared multiverse. So DS would have had gods in some sense, even if they never had any contact with the planet. But yes, 4e was more explicit and actually updated the setting. I just wanted to point out the the assimilation of settings was standard for 3e and 4e was just following in its foot steps.

Additionally, this process started in 2e.

That is an opinion, sure.

Again, not 1e and not FR gods. Temples yes, but that can easily be treated in an Eberron fashion.
Yeah, Eberron is a decent solution for culturally relativistic religious concepts.


Do you call it genocide when you step on an ant hill? But yes, generally speaking.

No, there is no evidence presented that the gods involved in the destruction of the crystal sphere were the FR gods. What is your obsession with making everything a FR god? Also, the destruction of the sun is ambiguous IIRC.

This is 100% true. And?

OK, that seems to be the case.

It appears from the text that gods no longer have any part of Fyreen and they are not worshipped. At this point they are probably a myth more than anything else. So I would say no, it does not "contend" with gods (genocidal or otherwise).

OK, that sounds correct. However, we don't know what will be unlocked on the DMsGuild until they tell us. It is possible that "defilers" may not be a part of it. It is also possible, though I doubt it, that they unlock Dark Sun in addition to Doomspace.

Absolutely. You can play a godless version of any D&D setting really. However, you cannot official convert Dark Sun yet. Doomspace =/= Dark Sun
 

@Yaarel, the text in the 5e spelljamer doesn’t actually say the gods doomed Fyreen. They destroyed the crystal sphere, but after that it is left up to the DM. One possibility is the gods created the vortex, it it is not fact. It is not even a fact that the vortex is destructive. It is possible that things are sent to a better reality once they pass through. So perhaps these are not genocidal gods (if it was the gods at all) but merciful ones. I think you might want to review your own biases first.
 

I am fairly sure that sun destroying weapons are explictly mentioned in the Illithiad for 2e D&D. However, they are my fave villians.

Not that it necessarily carries forward.

[Insert meme of Aliens Guy saying "I'm not saying it was mind flayers, but It was mind flayers."]
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
@Yaarel, the text in the 5e spelljamer doesn’t actually say the gods doomed Fyreen. They destroyed the crystal sphere, but after that it is left up to the DM. One possibility is the gods created the vortex, it it is not fact. It is not even a fact that the vortex is destructive. It is possible that things are sent to a better reality once they pass through. So perhaps these are not genocidal gods (if it was the gods at all) but merciful ones. I think you might want to review your own biases first.
I said "reputed" for that reason. Perhaps "alleged"?

On the other hand, there is no evidence for merciful. The Doomspace description presents a rumor: the "gods" destroyed the sun. Contrasting a falsehood: these "gods" dont exist. Those are the two options in play.

I get the feeling, the 5e designers no longer want to deal with the trope of slavery. At least not in the participatory way that Dark Sun does. So, they literally threw it into a black hole. But then walked it back into an ambiguous "you decide" ... that in fact never mentions slavery.

To be fair, I am fine without the slavery.

The parts of the Dark Sun setting that I enjoy most are the contrast between the psionic and arcane power sources. Plus how the four elements are sacred, both animistic and monistic perspectives explore.

Heh, 4e introducing "gods" into the setting itself is problematic. But the way it introduced the Feywild and Shadowfell, I like. Here there was respectful attention from within the Dark Sun setting. It is fair to equate Shadowfell with "The Gray", the realm of the dead. Meanwhile, the Feywild as the last gasps of positive ether, patches here and there, makes sense.

Plus, psionic elves are awesome.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Maybe it so happens that the wildspace around Fyreen and co. is a super source of energy and even the ''gods'' were Defilers, consuming the Ether to fuel their apotheosis. The wildspace became toxic and stagnant, killing one planet after the other. The gods had the...brilliant...idea to shatter the crystal sphere around the wildspace to somehow ''vent'' the accumulated chaotic fumes of consumed ether, to no avail.

They then devised an superb escape plan: create a space-sized portal to another wildspace. Magical component? A supernova! They then ran like scared children, abandoning the dying worlds in the hands on their once-sycophants, now masters of their domain. Leaving the Doomspace to one day step through the portal to a new system...and maybe meet again with the vile Defiler-Gods, now fully powered by ravaging a new space.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
It doesn't really matter if the conditions exist elsewhere or not, the claim is that the gods that destroyed Doomspace are in the Forgotten Realms. I see zero evidence of that.
Right. Also, going by the 2e Planescape and Spelljammer stuff, the gods of individual spheres (like RealmsSpace) are relatively weak, to the point that if you were a priest in 2e, you couldn't rely on getting spells (at least not higher-level spells) when outside your home sphere. Only the multisphere powers (the nonhuman gods and the gods of real-world pantheons) were really powerful.

The gods that destroyed Doomspace would have no power in the Realms and vice versa, because they have no worshipers there. And the gods of the Realms are antagonistic enough to each other that even if some of them wanted to destroy the entire sphere and had the power to do so, there would be plenty of other gods who would oppose them. And some of those opposing gods would be multisphere powers and would be very likely be more powerful than the other gods.
 

dave2008

Legend
Yeah, Eberron is a decent solution for culturally relativistic religious concepts.
Just wanted to clarify that my point is that both Eberron and Dark Sun, from WotC viewpoint, both have some relationship to gods. In that gods exist in D&D and all D&D settings are connected to some degree in WotC's viewpoint. Ultimately this means nothing as each game is its own thing and makes these decisions and distinctions for themselves.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Right. Also, going by the 2e Planescape and Spelljammer stuff, the gods of individual spheres (like RealmsSpace) are relatively weak, to the point that if you were a priest in 2e, you couldn't rely on getting spells (at least not higher-level spells) when outside your home sphere. Only the multisphere powers (the nonhuman gods and the gods of real-world pantheons) were really powerful.

The gods that destroyed Doomspace would have no power in the Realms and vice versa, because they have no worshipers there. And the gods of the Realms are antagonistic enough to each other that even if some of them wanted to destroy the entire sphere and had the power to do so, there would be plenty of other gods who would oppose them. And some of those opposing gods would be multisphere powers and would be very likely be more powerful than the other gods.
Yep. That sort of begs the question, though, just how did they get enough power to break the sphere if they have no worshippers or power there? They were gone for thousands of years.
 

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