D&D 5E "Doom Sun" − reconstructing a 5e Dark Sun setting for the DMs Guild

It's possible for planets and stars to survive crossing the event horizon of a supermassive black hole due to a lack of spaghettification.
True, as I understand it. I was also informed that there really isn't "distance" inside a black hole. That is, once you have crossed the event horizon there is a fixed amount of time until you are crushed into the singularity. This time is based on the mass of the singularity, so if you somehow were in a ship using its thrust to push against the singularity you don't gain anything. It's three days (or whatever) regardless of any maneuvering you might attempt.

Gravity gets weird when you get enough of it.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
True, as I understand it. I was also informed that there really isn't "distance" inside a black hole. That is, once you have crossed the event horizon there is a fixed amount of time until you are crushed into the singularity. This time is based on the mass of the singularity, so if you somehow were in a ship using its thrust to push against the singularity you don't gain anything. It's three days (or whatever) regardless of any maneuvering you might attempt.

Gravity gets weird when you get enough of it.
Sort of? We’re talking in terms of general relativity, which models gravity as the geometry of spacetime, so the most accurate way to think about it is that beyond the event horizon spacetime is curved so steeply that the speed you would need to be going to avoid falling towards the singularity is faster than the speed of light.

Of course, talking about the inside of a black hole in terms of general relativity is problematic because the fact that the theory predicts a singularity at the center is an indication that there’s something wrong with the model. It doesn’t adequately describe reality under those conditions. Basically, whatever we think we know about what goes on past the event horizon is probably wrong, and we won’t be able to figure out what actually goes on in there without a theory of quantum gravity.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
The following is my head canon to make sense of the D&D multiverse.

The "alchemy" of the Forgotten Realms setting is moreorless the same as reallife physics. At least, alchemy describes physical properties in ways that modern physics can make sense of. (Where alchemy produces a potion that shapechanges a drinker into a frog, could be a theoretical nanobot technology, or just "magic".) Where alchemy describes normal phenomena, such as gravity, it corresponds to reallife physics.

Alchemy describes four elements, but these elements mean the four states of matter, rather than the 100+ atomic elements. Namely: solid (earth), liquid (water), gas (air), and plasma (fire).

Here the fiery plasma is the "heavenly fire", a distinct state that happens at the sun, stars, and lightning, where electrons and protons separate from each other in a somewhat stable way, resembling gas but with electromagnetic properties. The fire of a candle is merely hot incandescent gas, thus an aspect of alchemical air, yet its luminosity resembles the fiery plasma of the sun, which is alchemical fire. There is also a "dark fire", being the nonluminous cold plasma, such as the plasmosphere around the planet Earth, beyond the atmosphere between the Earth and the Moon. Either way, alchemical fire corresponds to reallife plasma.

The D&D damage types relating to plasma − namely the heavenly fire, elemental fire, or alchemical fire − are: hot fire, magnetic lightning, and nuclear radiant. (Even so, I prefer to pair lightning damage with thunder damage, thus mainly associate lightning with the air element thematically.)

The four elements correspond to recognizable reallife physics.



The fifth element called "ether", sometimes called "spirit" (in the sense of a substance that spirits are made out of), is unlike the other four elements because it is immaterial even tho it is physical. The ethereal plane is the plane of the fifth element, ether. Ether is force.

The reallife fundamental forces are gravity, electromagnetism, and the nuclear forces. D&D telekinesis is the manipulation of ethereal force. In the same way that reallife matter is made out of nuclear forces (thus in a sense matter is ultimately immaterial), the four elements are made out ether. Matter is an involution of force, turning in on itself, forming a unit with material qualities.

The ethereal plane, that is the level of existence that is force, overlaps the material plane, that is the level of existence of matter. The part of the ethereal plane that overlaps the material plane is called the "shallow" ethereal plane, or the border ethereal plane. There are also parts of the ethereal plane that have little or nothing to do with material plane. These parts beyond the material are the deep ethereal plane. Instead of bordering the material plane, the deep ether borders the astral plane. Thus there is a continuum between astral thought forming ethereal force and eventually, by means of force, forming material matter. Thought creates matter, via force. The deep ethereal plane is where the "spirit worlds" operate separately away from the material world.

In my view, both the feywild and the shadowfell, are spirit worlds that are aspects of the ethereal plane. Albeit, the influence of positivity and negativity, respectively, qualitatively alters them. Likewise, both the fey and the shadow comprise a border realm that overlaps the material plane, where one can view and interact with it. The border shadow engages the material plane thru the distortions of negativity, so that the matter appears gloomy and decaying. Among matter the shadow creatures are ghostlike. Oppositely the border fey engages the material plane thru the distortions of positivity, so that the matter appears full of life and visually vibrant. Among matter, fey spirits exhibit heightened beauty and an enchanting psychological charm. The deep fey includes areas beyond the material world, such as delight domains where each manifests the influence of a community of fey or even a single. Oppositely, the deep shadow includes the dread domains.

The elemental planes are actually aspects of the deep ethereal plane, being the forms of matter, but not the substance itself. The elemental beings there are forces that behave like matter. These elements are the building blocks that the material universe will be made out of. Note, I also view the True Neutral astral dominion, called the Outlands among other names, to be the same thing as the ethereal Elemental Chaos. Either the Outlands itself is also ethereal, or else the Outlands and the Elemental Chaos closely border each other.

Notably, the border between the ethereal and the material is where the ethereal plane is actually part of the material plane. For example, gravity is a normal part of the qualities of matter in the material plane. Gravity is an ethereal force that exists simultaneously in both the ethereal plane and the material plane. If one manipulates gravity from either the material or the ethereal, it likewise alters the gravity of the other plane, because it is the same gravitational force. Likewise, telekinesis from one plane can affect the other plane. Force damage from one plane can affect the other plane.



When a mage "conjures" an other otherworldly creature from a nonmaterial plane, the magic forms a "conjuration" − namely a force construct made out of ether − that can serve as an avatar for that otherworldly creature. If this avatar within the material plane gets destroyed, the otherworldly creature remains safe elsewhere, albeit experiencing the "death" of its avatar can be unpleasant or traumatic. Similarly, the "magical energy" of a conjuration or an Eldritch Blast force damage spell, are made out of ethereal force.



It is impossible for finite beings to exist in either the positivity plane and the negativity plane. These planes are beyond the fabric of spacetime. The positivity is the infinite energy. All thoughts, forces, and matters, are made out of positivity. But these are finite packets of positivity able to exist, move, and change because of the fabric of spacetime. Oppositely, the negativity is absolute nothingness, without any finite quality. It is like an infinite black hole that only the infinite positivity can satisfy. But the separation between the positivity and the negativity is precisely what allows the fabric of spacetime to come into existence in the first place. The negativity is nothing, and lacks energy in itself, but when existing things drift toward it − toward annihilation, disintegration, decay, death, oblivion − its "influence" is improperly, or out of convenience, viewed as a kind of "negative energy". There is more about how positivity and negativity interact, but now to focus on the Spelljammer astral setting.



At this point, the black hole in Doomspace is a region of extreme gravitational force that annihilates matter. By definition, this is an area of extreme ethereal force. But its nihilism implies interactivity with the negativity plane. Perhaps there is a "rupture" in the ethereal plane where a single point, namely an "eye", that reveals the absolute nothingness of the negativity plane. The eye of negativity might resemble a Sphere of Annihilation but with extreme gravity pulling toward it. The association of both the ether and the nothingness might imply an ever-expanding shadowfell region that orbits around the negativity rupture, but within the event horizon of the black hole.
 
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Yaarel

Mind Mage
This evaluation seems precisely correct with regard to D&D "gods".
Umm… You’re welcome to your beliefs, but I’m pretty sure religion is a topic we’re not supposed to discuss here…



D&D fiction can have a setting where there are powerful creatures that some communities view as if "gods".

Of course, some settings lack such creatures.

But if the Players Handbook itself requires a reallife player to roleplay these creatures as if actual "gods", then it encroaches on the reallife beliefs of the player. Different reallife cultures can object for different reasons. In any case, there are MANY reallife players who are uncomfortable with treating D&D "gods" as gods. It does violate their reallife beliefs − enough to cause reallife discomfort.

The Cleric class as the Players Handbook describes it must clearly be open to different kinds of beliefs, so that reallife players from different cultures can feel equally comfortable, and able to enjoy the D&D game together.
 

That ship sailed in 1e, the D&D multiverse is a Thiestic multiverse, BUT thiestic religions aren't the only ones in D&D, heck they aren't even the only ones in FR.

But yeah the Gods are real in D&D (and in real life, but its fine if you don't believe in them), but in D&D there those who question if they are worthy of worship, and settings were those particular deities are unknown to exist or not, and those who chose to rever other things instead of Gods, such as philosophies, demons, angels, titans, devils, weird Far Realmsian horrors.

This is true in FR, Greyhawk, Dragonlance,Planescape, Spelljammer, Nentir Vale/Nerath, Exandria, etc..., with pre5e Eberron as the only exception.
Amusingly enough, with all the kerfuffle about FR-style gods existing in the same multiverse as Eberron (even if they can't access it), and the subsequent sophistry about what the word "god" means in different settings and how we should use it, I think something significant has been missed. . .

If the metaphysics of FR, which grants some powerful extra-planar beings the ability to grant divine power such as spells to worshippers also applies to Eberron, then the reverse is true. The metaphysics of Eberron, where belief alone can empower, and mortals don't need to worship powerful extra-planar beings to access divine power also applies to FR. :angel:
 

Amusingly enough, with all the kerfuffle about FR-style gods existing in the same multiverse as Eberron (even if they can't access it), and the subsequent sophistry about what the word "god" means in different settings and how we should use it, I think something significant has been missed. . .

If the metaphysics of FR, which grants some powerful extra-planar beings the ability to grant divine power such as spells to worshippers also applies to Eberron, then the reverse is true. The metaphysics of Eberron, where belief alone can empower, and mortals don't need to worship powerful extra-planar beings to access divine power also applies to FR. :angel:

No, simply because FR's Gods directly control how magic works in Realmspace, and they've made it so that Divine Magic comes from the Gods directly or indirectly, and Arcane Magic directly taps into the weave instead (psionic is completely seperate from either and often doesn't depend of the weave, except when replicating spells I think), and Ki is life force, but I don't think it normally relies on the weave either, except when replicating spells.

Remember the Gods of the Forgotten Realms are basically conscious laws of physics and magic, they set the rules by which reality functions which is why when AO cast them down during the time of troubles the laws of physics went heywire and divine magic outside of the close range of a God (with the exception of clerics if Helm) didn't work at all,not for Rangers, Druids, Clerics, or Paladins or Ur-Priests.
 

Mystara hadn't got "gods/deities" in the classic D&D standar, but "inmortal".

In D&D "deist" clerics are possible as option, in the sense of "devotin" to a cosmic force, but this may be a sentient being, for examples the druids as worshippers of Nature.

If you want, the vestige binders and shadowcasters (3.5 Tome of Magic) are possible in Athas, but with a list of primal (druids and rangers) spells instead the arcane magic.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
No, simply because FR's Gods directly control how magic works in Realmspace, and they've made it so that Divine Magic comes from the Gods directly or indirectly, and Arcane Magic directly taps into the weave instead (psionic is completely seperate from either and often doesn't depend of the weave, except when replicating spells I think), and Ki is life force, but I don't think it normally relies on the weave either, except when replicating spells.

Remember the Gods of the Forgotten Realms are basically conscious laws of physics and magic, they set the rules by which reality functions which is why when AO cast them down during the time of troubles the laws of physics went heywire and divine magic outside of the close range of a God (with the exception of clerics if Helm) didn't work at all,not for Rangers, Druids, Clerics, or Paladins or Ur-Priests.

The metaphysics of Eberron, where belief alone can empower, and mortals don't need to worship powerful extra-planar beings to access divine power also applies to FR.

Xanathars describes the default Forgotten Realms setting. A "cosmic force" is legal, at least supplementally, to access the divine power source. This includes revering each element as a kind of cosmic force. Likewise "life" relating to positivity, healing, and various Cleric features, can also count as a cosmic force. So a Life Cleric is doable. But the standard Dark Sun Clerics access Life via one of the four elements.

Xanathars allows Eberron-style religions to function in Forgotten Realms.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Xanathars describes the default Forgotten Realms setting. A "cosmic force" is legal, at least supplementally, to access the divine power source. This includes revering each element as a kind of cosmic force. Likewise "life" relating to positivity, healing, and various Cleric features, can also count as a cosmic force. So a Life Cleric is doable. But the standard Dark Sun Clerics access Life via one of the four elements.

Xanathars allows Eberron-style religions to function in Forgotten Realms.
Sure. And for my next Forgotten Realms campaign I could easily just declare that all the gods are gone except for The One and have a monotheism. It would be very easy to do, because religion isn't forced on anyone in D&D and it's very easy to change religious systems to whatever I want.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Sure. And for my next Forgotten Realms campaign I could easily just declare that all the gods are gone except for The One and have a monotheism. It would be very easy to do, because religion isn't forced on anyone in D&D and it's very easy to change religious systems to whatever I want.
It is the Players Handbook itself that needs to be inclusive of players from different cultures to ensure they have a safespace and feel comfortable.
 

The right word in D&D wouldn't be monotheism but "monolatry", when you accept the existence of different deities but you only wordship one.


* Why not to add any thing like the "living idols" from al-Aquadim?

 

The right word in D&D wouldn't be monotheism but "monolatry", when you accept the existence of different deities but you only wordship one.


* Why not to add any thing like the "living idols" from al-Aquadim?

Well in the Realms it's generally accepted to give prayers to different gods depending on the situation. It's fairly rare to take one as a patron above all others.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
It is the Players Handbook itself that needs to be inclusive of players from different cultures to ensure they have a safespace and feel comfortable.
The core rulebooks have to appeal to the broadest possible audience.

You are describing a potential niche. That belongs is some other publication - such as a setting book.
I just picked up Ravnica at the library. On a fast pass, you might find that treatment of gods (or god-less-ness) similar to your expressed preference.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It is the Players Handbook itself that needs to be inclusive of players from different cultures to ensure they have a safespace and feel comfortable.
It does.

"Many people in the worlds of D&D worship different gods at different times and circumstances."

Many, not all.

And...

"Your DM determines which gods, if any, are worshiped in his or her campaign."

"If any" means that it's possible to have no gods in D&D. The players get told in the PHB that gods aren't forced on them and that it's a DM's choice whether to have them or not.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
"Your DM determines which gods, if any, are worshiped in his or her campaign."
Literally, two words is hardly support. But it is notable.

Yet, if the DM is the one who determines what religious traditions exist in the setting, then Players Handbook has no business mentioning any religions at all.

All content relating to specific kinds of religions belong in the DMs Guide as part of DM worldbuilding.

All cosmology belongs in the DMs Guide as part of worldbuilding. Not in the Players Handbook. Even spells that imply cosmology like Astral Projection, Contact Other Plane, Planeshift, and so on, probably do better in the DMs Guide, in a list of cosmological spells.

If the DM and players choose to buy an official setting, such as Dark Sun, or Forgotten Realms, they use its adventure guide together, verbatim. But the Players Handbook needs to be more open-ended and more supportive of the world that the DM is building.
 

Remathilis

Legend
This thread was more interesting when it was about Not-Athas.

I think it would be interesting to see if there is some ideas that could be lifted off Doomspace to be used back on Dark Sun. Admittedly, there is scant info in the book, but you never know. Moreover, I think you could use ideas from Dark Sun in Doomspace if you need to flesh it out some.

Assuming you're just going to use Doomspace just for the module, what Dark Sun influence would you add back?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Literally, two words is hardly support. But it is notable.
It lets the players know that options exist and the DM is the one to ask to find out.
Yet, if the DM is the one who determines what religious traditions exist in the setting, then Players Handbook has no business mentioning any religions at all.
The DM is the one who determines everything that is possible with the world. And I disagree with you entirely about the PHB having no business mentioning religions at all. The game sets up the defaults, but supplies ideas on how things to both the players and the DM.

By letting the players know that things can change, it gives them encouragement to ask the DM for such a change. Often DMs just go with the default and haven't considered other possibilities. If the player sees those words, he can say to the DM, "I would like to be a cleric of a cosmic force or philosophy or something. Often the DM will say yes. Sometimes he will say no.
All content relating to specific kinds of religions belong in the DMs Guide as part of DM worldbuilding.
No. This is false The game must set up defaults and then allow the DM to change them. A game that forces the DM to worldbuild from the ground up is one that will fail. A great many DMs have too much going on in their life to build that much.
Not in the Players Handbook. Even spells that imply cosmology like Astral Projection, Contact Other Plane, Planeshift, and so on, probably do better in the DMs Guide, in a list of cosmological spells.
And all races, because someone might be offended at elf, halfling or dragonborn. And all classes, because even "cleric" implies some sort of religion. Sorcerer and wizard imply magic, and that can be offensive to some people, too. Fighters imply violence, and many are offended by violence. Weapons imply violence, too.

In short, if we go with what people out there could and would be offended by, there is basically no PHB at all and the DM has to build everything and write up for the players what is in the game.

What has to be done is what they do. Set up the defaults and let people who would be offended at religions know that not all D&D games have them, so they can find a DM that fits their needs. Nothing more should be done on that front.
 

In the 4th Ed, in Dragon Magazine #395 There was an article about "primal spirits" from Athas: Forest Father, Silver Wind, the Spirit Khanate and Stone Brother. Maybe they are fey lords ruling wasteland domains in the "Lands within the Wind".

Somes players could be very interesting into their PCs becoming the new living deities funding a new pantheon.

* The psiforged are warforged created by psionic powers. The living contructs may be "OP" in Athas because these as PC races don't need water, food, and they shouldn't be worried about extreme temperatures. Some DM could allow them in DS, but with a condition, suffereing an area effect like the Disquiet from White Wolf's Prometheus: the Created.

* We are talking about how should be the right cooking of a recipe, but in the kitchen the cooks do it in their own way. Maybe one is right for a table but wrong for other. It is really subjetive.

* After the Chaos War in Dragonlance the divine magic couldn't work like before. I wonder if the mysticism from Dragonlance could work in Athas.

* Are 5e paladins possible in Athas if now they aren't necesarially linked to deities?

* Don't you miss the psionic ardent class? and the lurk? I guess now in the 5e they would be recycled as subclasses. What a pity! Could the wilder a psionic sorcerer subclass?

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This thread was more interesting when it was about Not-Athas.

I think it would be interesting to see if there is some ideas that could be lifted off Doomspace to be used back on Dark Sun. Admittedly, there is scant info in the book, but you never know. Moreover, I think you could use ideas from Dark Sun in Doomspace if you need to flesh it out some.

Assuming you're just going to use Doomspace just for the module, what Dark Sun influence would you add back?
That's been what a lot of this thread was about, outside of the god talk. All my posts are about what I'd add back to Fyreen from Athas, such as Dragon-Kings :p
 

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