D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[Tallifer]

One of the problems of D&D and similar games is trying to mash together heroic archetypes from a bazillion genres. Within the world of Edgar Rice Burroughs, no one can surpass Tarzan of the Apes for cunning, skill, strength and ability to overcome challenges; but he would just be a naked Muggle in the world of J. K. Rowling. Likewise, in pulp fiction Pellucidar, Harry Potter would be a pretentious nerd whose spell would bounce off of Tarzan's iron will and savage superiority to effete arcane sorcery.

I therefore preferred 4E's stance that all heroes are equally powerful and vulnerable in their different ways. There was no Codzilla on Barsoom or in Opar.

 

[Art Waring]

This isn't an accident. Zorro and Robin Hood will never gain the power and breadth of tools of a Doctor Strange by just training and getting more experience, and neither do the classes that look to them for inspiration. Power comparable to high level spells just isn't acquired in the same way by non-magicians in most fiction.

Absolutely agree. But those seeking to emulate martial heroes from mythology are without options. Gilgamesh, Herakles (or Hercules), these archetypes are crucial mythological elements which are missing or very much lacking. Even making a 'Homer' intelligece based fighter seems out of reach by wotc's standards.

Now onto anime, Ninja Scroll has a very interesting visual representation of a martial character (Jubei), that is completely mundane in all respects, but can use their sword to create a wind-slash, essentially extending the reach of their katana. It's not much compared to a wizard or a warlock, but even that seems to be "too much" for people to handle.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This isn't an accident. Zorro and Robin Hood will never gain the power and breadth of tools of a Doctor Strange by just training and getting more experience, and neither do the classes that look to them for inspiration. Power comparable to high level spells just isn't acquired in the same way by non-magicians in most fiction.

the problem is that zorro and robin hood are not what people see... they want mortal heroes just as awesome as the casters... they want batman and captain America and odyssus not 'soldier number 8'

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I therefore preferred 4E's stance that all heroes are equally powerful and vulnerable in their different ways. There was no Codzilla on Barsoom or in Opar.

please remember to tell them this at every chance in the playtest

 

[Blue Orange]

One of the problems of D&D and similar games is trying to mash together heroic archetypes from a bazillion genres. Within the world of Edgar Rice Burroughs, no one can surpass Tarzan of the Apes for cunning, skill, strength and ability to overcome challenges; but he would just be a naked Muggle in the world of J. K. Rowling. Likewise, in pulp fiction Pellucidar, Harry Potter would be a pretentious nerd whose spell would bounce off of Tarzan's iron will and savage superiority to effete arcane sorcery.

I therefore preferred 4E's stance that all heroes are equally powerful and vulnerable in their different ways. There was no Codzilla on Barsoom or in Opar.

Conan's kind of in the middle; he can defeat all the sorcerers, but it's not too difficult to imagine a less powerful warrior succumbing, or a more powerful wizard overcoming him.

 

[Tallifer]

Conan's kind of in the middle; he can defeat all the sorcerers, but it's not too difficult to imagine a less powerful warrior succumbing, or a more powerful wizard overcoming him.

I agree. I think the D&D concept of Level, not Class, should reflects this.

The Original D&D (Gygax's) made wizards rightfully weak at low levels. Hell's bells: clerics did not even get a spell at 1st level.

 

[Blue Orange]

I get the feeling everyone got used to the 'linear warriors, quadratic wizards' trope and now when you deviate from it people get upset. It might change as you have more anime influences, where that's less of a thing.

 

[deganawida]

Lately I've become convinced that the root of the LFQW problem lies with the central mechanic of D&D levels: that a person can become infinitely more powerful just by practicing. This works just fine for casters, since the basic idea is someone who gains immense power through knowledge. A character knowing a thing implies a time when they didn't know it yet, so it's easy to picture a wizard at Level Elminster or whatever and work backwards to imagine his earlier, lower-level days.

Most other powerful fantasy figures don't get their power in the same way. Hercules didn't learn to be the son of Zeus; Nightcrawler didn't learn to be a mutant. Achilles gets dipped in the river Styx and Bruce Banner gets caught in a gamma bomb, but it happens all at once, not over the course of several years and a dozen levels. None of these characters really have a level one incarnation. A suitable martial archetype for dungeons and dragons doesn't just need to be Hercules. It needs to be a nobody who can pick up a sword and become Hercules one day just by working really hard, and that's not something you see in Western fiction very often.

^This.

For martial and skill characters, levels are really representing refinement of technique and skill. For spell-casters, it’s about acquisition of more power. Spell level power is miles beyond that of all but artifact level equipment. If and until the designers take a good, hard look at magic items or spell levels, LFQW will continue to exist.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I get the feeling everyone got used to the 'linear warriors, quadratic wizards' trope and now when you deviate from it people get upset. It might change as you have more anime influences, where that's less of a thing.

i hope that all of the new players that have joined in the last 5 years don't have the 'but wizards need to be better' as ingrained.

 

[Remathilis]

So how about something like...


Steel Wind Strikes

You flourish your weapon and then vanish to strike like the wind. Spend a Martial Token*. As an action, choose up to five creatures you can see within 30 feet. Make a melee attack against each target. On a hit, a target takes 6d10 bludgeoning, slashing or piercing damage (determined by the weapon you used).
You can then end your turn to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit or missed.

*Or whatever the limiting factor on martials is going to be.