D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[Alzrius]

I suspect the tag on this thread should be changed, as this isn't a 5E issue. It's one that D&D has struggled with for a long, long time, which isn't surprising considering that it's difficult (to put it mildly) to design a toolkit that ostensibly allows for a wide range of potential character archetypes to be played while simultaneously standardizing the power they have relative to each other so that they're comparable in effectiveness (at least at the same level). Doubly so when you need to figure out how much of a range of power they're expected to have across the breadth of available levels, typically 1 through 20.

That's hard to do simply because the expectations that people bring to the table can be (and quite often are) radically different. Gimli is comparable in effectiveness to Sam and Dean Winchester, but not to Naruto. Trying to make those characters all fit into the same mold at every level is going to strain expectations. Batman might be able to be a contributing (and often indispensable) member of the Justice League, but Batman has authorial fiat on his side, which is why he can get the drop on Darkseid while later being knocked unconscious by the Joker. Most RPGs don't have that going for them.

In some ways, this is D&D's greatest weakness. It wants to take disparate ideas and make them all playable, but tries to do so by putting them all into the same framework, which makes that framework strain at the seams.

 

[dave2008]

Since it's been taking over the 1DD playtest thread, I'm taking the liberty of spinning it off so people have a place to discuss it spearately.

For some reason, there's a very vocal contingent of D&D players who think that martials being able to do anything more impressive than a real-world body builder breaks suspension of disbelief. Given that this is a game of heroic high fantasy, I cannot wrap my head around this POV.

We have wizards who can create pocket dimensions, snuff out life with the snap of a finer, and raise armies of undead minions, but the idea that a fighter can let out an intimidating shout that makes enemies cower in fear without knowing a spell is a bridge too far for some.

D&D is a game that wears its pop cultural influences in its sleeve. The monk is based on 70s kung fu movies; wizards are ripped from Jack Vance's Dying Earth; clerics are Peter Cushing's Professor van Helsing.

Yet there's a curious mismatch in terms of which classes draw on which inspirations. Wizards get to be Circe, yet fighters aren't allowed to be Hercules. Warlocks are are Dr. Strange; rogues don't get to be Nightcrawler.

Maybe it's time the martials draw on the same inspiration as the casters.

Can we go the other way and bring the magic users down to the martial's level? That is what my group prefers. OH wait, we already do that with houserules - we are all good then!

Seriously though. That is not what 5e is nor will be. Though they could make a class like that (similar to the Monk or Paladin which are magic martials). Your best bet for D&D that fits your desires is to play 4e or PF2. They are great games and do what you want out of the box. Or, grab a 3PP (or homebrew) supplement that does what you want for 5e. They are out there. Heck, I started one here for fighter built on wizard chassis (not the best starting point, more to prove a point).

 

[Haplo781]

In some ways, this is D&D's greatest weakness. It wants to take disparate ideas and make them all playable, but tries to do so by putting them all into the same framework, which makes that framework strain at the seams.

Not only is the game inconsistent vis a vis its inspirations, it's not even internally consistent.

A rhinoceros, according to 5e, has a strength score of 21. That translates to a +5 mod, which an average fighter is rocking by level 4.

Does anyone honestly think a 5e fighter is anywhere near as strong as a rhino at level 4? For reference, here's a rhino tossing an SUV around like a ragdoll.

An adult black rhino is estimated to be able to carry 900 pounds without any real effort. Under 5e rules? A mere 315 pounds, so off by almost a factor of 3.

People want to insist on making the martial classes "realistic," but the game doesn't even have any internal logic for them to follow.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's hard to do simply because the expectations that people bring to the table can be (and quite often are) radically different. Gimli is comparable in effectiveness to Sam and Dean Winchester, but not to Naruto. Trying to make those characters all fit into the same mold at every level is going to strain expectations. Batman might be able to be a contributing (and often indispensable) member of the Justice League, but Batman has authorial fiat on his side, which is why he can get the drop on Darkseid while later being knocked unconscious by the Joker. Most RPGs don't have that going for them.

this is very much the issue.

Spoiler: the batman issue

batman is especially an issue because of the up and down. you can read about him fighting Darkseid one week and the next week launch a 5 part 'epic' where a serial killer gives him trouble.
And it isn't just batman (although maybe he is the poster child) because I can say the same with spiderman, wolverine, captain America

I just think you need to give the warriors the ability to keep up with gandalf, dr strange, and dr fate is not 'robin hood' without 'robin hood' getting something on par.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Your best bet for D&D that fits your desires is to play 4e or PF2.

now is the time to try to change D&D the way we want...not the time to run to other games

 

[dave2008]

now is the time to try to change D&D the way we want...not the time to run to other games

1. Those other games are D&D.
2. The changes you want are outside the scope of what WotC will do with 5e, therefor...
3. Your best bet to change the current D&D is to vote with your wallet (play a different game, see #1). If sales go done they might abandon 5e forever and make a game more to your liking. That is the time to get what you want.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

1. Those other games are D&D.

they are D&D like

1. The changes you want are outside the scope of what WotC will do with 5e, therefor...

nobody but WotC knows before we see it... now is the time to push for what we want.

1. Your best bet to change the current D&D is to vote with your wallet (play a different game, see #1). If sales go done they might abandon 5e forever and make a game more to your liking. That is the time to get what you want.

or, and I am going out on a limb, we can go to the surveys they are putting out

 

[Haplo781]

1. Those other games are D&D.
2. The changes you want are outside the scope of what WotC will do with 5e, therefor...
3. Your best bet to change the current D&D is to vote with your wallet (play a different game, see #1). If sales go done they might abandon 5e forever and make a game more to your liking. That is the time to get what you want.

This is indeed the time to get what I want... By forcefully but respectfully providing feedback on the next edition of D&D.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This is indeed the time to get what I want... By forcefully but respectfully providing feedback on the next edition of D&D.

yes, and we have to try not to edition war, just put forward what we like and dislike.

 

[dave2008]

This is indeed the time to get what I want... By forcefully but respectfully providing feedback on the next edition of D&D.

But it is not a new edition. So you can ask, but you will not get it. I just don't want you to get frustrated and think they are not listening. They have specifically said this not a new edition, so your desires simply cannot be met within the scope of what they have said they are doing.

The one caveat to that is, they could achieve what you want by adding a new dedicated class (let's call it the demigod). However, that is likely to come out after the 2024 release.