D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[Gammadoodler]

That is why, fiction wise, I've been playing with explicit power sources as mechanical hooks.

Mechanically, a power source starts out as something like a feat or an attuned magic item (a small to medium sized thing attached to a character), but you can use it to justify gaining levels in a class. And as you do so, the power source also gains power (becoming like a feat chain, or a more powerful version of the magic item).

Power sources might have a max on how many levels they can be used to justify. And they can be found in-game. And all PCs will start with one (which also explains why, mechanically, you gain competence so much faster than random people do; the world simulation problem).

Your power source could be Divine Blood (1) -- which starts out giving you death ward once per long rest. And it might be good for 5 levels (to start!), upgrading the death ward to 1/short rest, and maybe another feat-like ability you can pick from a menu.

Maybe later you kill a dragon, and bathe in its heart blood as you slay it -- and gain the Dragon Blood power source. Which gives you fire resistance initially, but could go a lot of directions from there (scales? fire breath? Turning into a half-dragon? Lots of ways!)

Like magic items, you can have a limit to how many power sources you are attuned to.

Anyhow, once you have these power sources as justification, martial abilities at higher levels can be insane without asking "why can a street urchin do that?". You can teleport as a high level Rogue? Well, you do have divine blood! Or, you bathed in the blood of a dragon. Or you swallowed the heart of the time lord. Or you practiced using ancient, mystic scrolls. Or one of many, many power sources, all of which justify "you are awesome" narratively.

This also works for spellcasters. It should take more than a few weeks to become an archmage -- but not if you have the soul of a demon prince, the blessing of a fey lord, and have read the entire endless book of all that which we do not know.

I arrived at something similar that takes place around the mid-levels 10-11 or so. I figured "Combat's Crucible" might be a good name for it.

The general idea is that experience in combat has triggered some kind of spiritual insight, perfection of technique, training methodology, etc. that marked your divergence from the path of the mundane.

Could be stuff like

"You are what you eat"- Consuming certain monster parts gives you some measure of their abilities.

"Perfect form" - physical training is significantly more effective. Get bonus ASIs that only apply to physical stats, with a raised stat cap.

"Secrets of speed"- Get enhanced mobility of some variety, perhaps extra attacks, or some kind of trade up of multiple attacks for a single more powerful strike.

Etc.

But generally, whatever it is, it's an explicit departure from normie warrior. After you've been through the Crucible, you are something more than what you were born as. Some of the options could be explicitly magical, some could be superhuman but nonmagical badassery.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

While I want high tier play, and I want every class to eventually evolve into a suitably epic version of itself, I realize that doing so will fundamentally change the game, and the instant you tell people who like non-epic D&D that they have to stop playing by level 9 or so, they might bugger off to other systems, like Dungeon Crawl Classics or Shadow of the Demon Lord, which is something WotC isn't about to do unless they're absolutely sure that's where the money is.

Where is this high level non-epic D&D? Wishes, demi planes, plane shifting, etc. are pretty epic. I think you might mean not having a mundane version of the martial class at high levels would force some people to look else where? I don't think I've seen anyone advocating for a mythic martial saying that we must take away the current Fighter. I personally don't care if it exists as an option.

TLDR: D&D isn't actually many different things for many different people. It's always going to leave a group dissatisfied. You're not going to get WotC to build a game for everyone, because that's not profitable.

Someone is going to get edged out, no matter what happens. If the pendulum swings more towards the people who want more dynamic character classes, it's going to push out the people who are happy with the simple, grounded game experience. We can try to extend olive branches, but I don't see how that's going to work out in our current reality.

I agree that D&D can never please everyone. On this paticular issue, I am less pessimistic. I just don't see why we couldn't leave the current Fighter the same (or marginally improve it within the mundane paradigmn). Then add a mythic martial that is capped in complexity, power and versalitity by the current Wizard.

How would this fundamentally change the game? You are adding a class that is at most as complex, powerful, and versatile than the Wizard (and likely less)?

Again, if everyone starts playing the mythic martial instead of the Fighter then that would change the game -- but it would also tell us people wanted a different game!

If people pick and choose as they wish for their tables, we now have expanded options and can cater to a larger set of preferences and world types? How is this not a win?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Fighters should get their version of cantrips and invocations.

I keep pushing for a warlord built on the warlock chaise...

2 subclasses... at 1st level you choose to be tactical or inspiring then at 3rd level you choose to be a knight a battle captain or a mastermind...

a list of 6-8 at will exploits (1/2 combat 1/4 social 1/4 exploration) but you only start with 2 at 1st level get a 3rd around 5th level a 4th around 11th and a 5th around 16th.... but they scale like cantrips.... commander strike and wolf pact tactics are my go to examples

a list of per short rest exploits that level...like the warlock spells. You start with 2 known and you can use 1 per short rest, then you can use 2 at 2nd and you keep learning more and more... you get a 3rd at level 10 and a 4th at level 17

a list of mini class feats... like invocations these can grant 1/long rest abilities, new abilities to use those short rest ones or augment or give new at wills...

starting at level 11 you get BIG GAME CHANGING DAILies... but you only learn 1 per exploit level like the high arcana

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I don't see this as a viable goal- does anyone really think WotC is going to spend time printing both classes, just in case players want one or the other?

I wish we could go back to the 4e paradigm with 1-10 being Sgt. Rock, 11-20 being Captain America, and 21-30 being Thor.

A mundane Fighter and a mythic martial have very different appeals and are very different classes. Just like now sometimes some one wants to play a Wizard and sometimes a Fighter. It 's not "just in case", it's appealing to different aesthics, mechanical complexity, balance expectations, etc.

That said, the 4e way would be good with me as well. Personally I don't get the appeal of a 20th level everyman adventuring along Dr. Strange like Wizards (at least without metacurrency and other stuff to even things out). Although, again, I don't see the need to remove this choice if other people like it.

 

[Garthanos]

But generally, whatever it is, it's an explicit departure from normie warrior.

Epic destiny

After you've been through the Crucible, you are something more than what you were born as. Some of the options could be explicitly magical, some could be superhuman but nonmagical badassery.

5e/3e like their explicit... 4e made a lot of things implicit like most of the attribute advancement and subject to flavor choices but also some of that is explicit as its part of epic destinies. 5e has tomes and girdles and the like to enhance attributes (taking it out of players hands).

On this particular issue, I am less pessimistic. I just don't see why we couldn't leave the current Fighter the same (or marginally improve it within the mundane paradigm).

I think a lot can be done for the core fighter without aesthetic impact tbh
for instance by embracing "I am the best at fighting because I am not stuck in one role on the battlefield". Mechanically by buffing the flexibility of its abilities not making them more powerful - like why can't the BM parry or riposte attacks on my adjacent ally (does riposte then eat another maneuver)? Also collapse the PDK/Banneret into the core class (you are a hero of course you can inspire an ally to dig deep the question becomes will you).

And the BM should be able to do maneuvers effectively at-will if I spend the extra attack or bonus action. None of that will make the fighter necessarily more powerful just more flexible.

Perhaps even allow a generic risky move choice that earns an extra attack for you when its used but trigger an opportunity attack for an adjacent enemy (you may never use the option but it gives a roleplay choice). Yes a little more complex for a Champion but very mundane style and an option you can ignore.

Or we can make maneuvers explicitly more powerful when you excede a given level.. A rally that can shore up all the allies in a radius umm makes a bit more sense really. A cleave that affects all enemies adjacent when you are above level 8 or some such.

Then add a mythic martial that is capped in complexity, power and versatility by the current Wizard.

Battlemaster was theoretically supposed to be our complex martial

How would this fundamentally change the game? You are adding a class that is at most as complex, powerful, and versatile than the Wizard (and likely less)?

It shouldn't but I was chastised for advocating that because that vision of Warlord was going to exclude people who like simple

 

[Vaalingrade]

certainly a possibility what are your ideas of fighter cantrips?

Push, Pull, Trip, Grapple, Taunt, Command Attack, Command Move, Disarm, Cleave, Damage On Miss, Long Shot, Shield Bash, Damage Environment (Creating Difficult Terrain), Break Stuff, Checkless Jump/Climb/Swim, Hurl Heavy Object, prevent movement, Prevent AoO.

For a Start

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I think a lot can be done for the core fighter without aesthetic impact

Sure. And I think that is worth exploring if keeping the mundane martial in. A5e does a decent job of this. It certainly is not a substitute for the mythic martial.

Battlemaster was theoretically supposed to be our complex martial

Sure but even it was implemented well like say A5e, I don't think the mythic martial conversation goes away. You've stratched the itch of complexity but not versatility and power.

It shouldn't but I was chastised for advocating that because that vision of Warlord was going to exclude people who like simple

Yeah, I mean I think the simple folks have their class already so time to cater to another group.

 

[Garthanos]

Sure. And I think that is worth exploring if keeping the mundane martial in. A5e does a decent job of this. It certainly is not a substitute for the mythic martial.

Agreed though there are a few maneuvers with a mythic cast to them, I suppose even those could be made a lower rank with upgraded versions. The ground doesnt just shake it splits open when you use that herculean stomp (insert actual maneuver name here) and can I "split the mountain".

Sure but even it was implemented well like say A5e, I don't think the mythic martial conversation goes away. You've stratched the itch of complexity but not versatility and power.

Yeah level up was careful not to alter the power grade much... though they did buff some things in ways that do shift balance generally for the better. The monk at 10+ level has more power options for instance. And the most likely offensive melee combatant builds are actually better (Two weapon fighting is now fairly good and GWM - Powerful Attacker is also better).

 

[Gammadoodler]

Push, Pull, Trip, Grapple, Taunt, Command Attack, Command Move, Disarm, Cleave, Damage On Miss, Long Shot, Shield Bash, Damage Environment (Creating Difficult Terrain), Break Stuff, Checkless Jump/Climb/Swim, Hurl Heavy Object, prevent movement, Prevent AoO.

For a Start

Probably not cantrip-level usage, but would add Inflict Status Condition.

Blindness, Deafness, Stunned, Frightened, Paralysis, Poisoned, and/or Unconsciousness have all been consequences of actual physical combat. It's super weird that these effects are so exclusively tied to spellcasting.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Push, Pull, Trip, Grapple, Taunt, Command Attack, Command Move, Disarm, Cleave, Damage On Miss, Long Shot, Shield Bash, Damage Environment (Creating Difficult Terrain), Break Stuff, Checkless Jump/Climb/Swim, Hurl Heavy Object, prevent movement, Prevent AoO.

For a Start

tide of iron
wolf pack tactics
commander strike
opening shove
rousing assault
cleave
reaping assault