D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Cadence]

I am pretty sure Hulk Hogan lifted Andre the Giant above his head and then body slammed him. Andre is a LOT heavier than any of my drunk friends.

With the great wrestlers, is it always hard to tell how much help they give each other...

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[ECMO3]

Killing the wizard should trump the cleric IME, but yeah a lot of DMs fail on that one... sadly.

If you are fighting a party you need to kill the cleric first because if you don't the Wizard won't stay down.

The time our 7th-level party beat Orcus our Barbarian went down like 7 rounds in a row .... and was back swinging his sword with reckless attack and around 5 hps on his next turn every time. Down the Wizard and not the cleric and the wizard will stand up and hit you with a save or suck next turn.

There are really two options -
1. if you have enough attacks kill someone dead after you down them, keep attacking until they are actually dead and can't be healed before you shift fire to a standing target
2. Down the healers first.

Most DMs I play with never do #1. Call it compasion, call it not wanting to end the game for a player, but they do not pick on downed characters and if they want to win they should.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The features probably need to focus on effects other than damage.

So, what about those options I wrote: lift over 4000 lbs, run over 40 mph, leap over 100 feet?

Super-strength seems archetypally appropriate, from Norse Thor to Marvel Thor. A temporary hulking out for 21+ giant strength works, mainly for the carrying capacity but Strength bonus to damage too.

I've thought about this a lot today while at work. One issue is a lot of such things seem more appropriate to barbarian or some other class than fighters...

For example:

Powerful Rage (or Mighty Rage). When you rage, your Strength score increases by an amount equal to your proficiency bonus. The increase lasts as long as you are raging.

So, with Primal Champion, while raging, a Barbarian could have STR 30 (base 20 + 4 for primal champion + 6 while raging with powerful rage).

A similar feature would allow you to act one (or more) size category larger when raging. Combining the two ideas would allow a Barbarian with STR 30 and the lift capability of a gargantuan creature.

But I have a harder time seeing that for a "Fighter"....

Additionally, "subtle" spells, such as slot-9 Foresight (gain advantage / impose disadvantage) and Invulnerability (damage immunity!) might be appropriate.

Mechanically, sure, but how to justify the narrative without it seeming "magical", which is something A LOT of people want to avoid when bumping up the Fighter.

For me, the challenge is coming up with a supporting narrative for such features. I've had little success for those cases with Fighter.

Now, again, for other martials not so much. I could see a revised Foe Slayer:

Foe Slayer (level 20 Ranger feature). Your knowledge and understanding of your favored foes is unsurpassed. You gain advantage on attacks made against your favored foes, and your favored foes have disadvantage when attacking you. You also have advantage on saving throws made against your favored foes. Any Intelligence or Wisdom check you make concerning your favored foes cannot roll below a 10.

Perfect Defense (Monk feature). You can spend 1 ki point and enter a state of perfect tranquility. For 1 minute, you have immunity to all damage, but must spend an additional ki point at the start of each of your turns to remain in your trance. (up to 10 ki total)

Dont forget to make the appropriate sacrifices to swap in these powerful Wizard class features. Even so, they allow the Fighter to function at the level of slot-9 spells.

Yeah, there has to be some trade-off. Whether it is limited use, duration, or some "sacrifice" as you say...

An acceptable way to magically empower a Fighter is to grant the Fighter a magic weapon or armor. It is easy to make a magic item part of the design space of the Fighter class. When the Fighter character levels, let the player pick which magic item one wants. The narrative can be awkward, how does the nonmagical Fighter acquire this magic item? The magic item might be bound to the fate of the Fighter, and appear when the Fighter is ready. The Fighter might be a kind of famous sword forger, who can imbue the weapon with a part of oneself, or magic the weapon by becoming one with it.

Maybe, but again the narrative is always important to me as well.

 

[Reynard]

The D&D mechanic of a "saving throw" for a spell displaces the possibility of the caster being the one that makes the d20 check.

If going 4e style, the caster would be rolling d20 "attacks". Then a natural 20 would be a spectacular crit, and a natural 1 would be a spectacular fumble.

But 5e removes the agency from the caster player.

"Agency" isn't who gets to roll the die.

 

[Reynard]

Hey, I can hold out hope. Maybe there's enough people playing now who like anime/mythic heroes to get it done and drown out those who only want fighter types to be schmuck town guards with slightly bigger numbers in some weird anti-power fantasy.

Unless I missed it, you ignored my question about Psi Warrios and Phantom rogues -- why don't these fit your desires for empowered, non caster martials?

 

[DND_Reborn]

If you are fighting a party you need to kill the cleric first because if you don't the Wizard won't stay down.

Yeah, but a lot depends on what level we are talking about. At a high enough level, kill the Cleric first and the Wizard will bring it back!

The time our 7th-level party beat Orcus

PLEASE tell me this is a type-O and you meant 17th level, not 7th? I mean, we are talking about CR 26 Orcus, right? Not some CR 6 "Orcus" who is just a powerful orc???

Most DMs I play with never do #1. Call it compasion, call it not wanting to end the game for a player, but they do not pick on downed characters and if they want to win they should.

I nearly always do option #1 if the PCs and foes are about equal in number.

Another great tactic is to have the BBEG threaten to kill the downed PC if the others don't surrender, leave, etc. I've used this a number of times. I find it sort of hilarious when the party decides to let the downed PC die and then dealt with the enemy, just to revive/raise the dead PC...

Frankly, I don't know if I would want to adventure with such "companions", but I suppose in a world of magic, views might differ...

 

[Yaarel]

So, what about those options I wrote: lift over 4000 lbs, run over 40 mph, leap over 100 feet?

I think superstrength is fine at levels 13 plus.

I've thought about this a lot today while at work. One issue is a lot of such things seem more appropriate to barbarian or some other class than fighters...

For example:

Powerful Rage (or Mighty Rage). When you rage, your Strength score increases by an amount equal to your proficiency bonus. The increase lasts as long as you are raging.

So, with Primal Champion, while raging, a Barbarian could have STR 30 (base 20 + 4 for primal champion + 6 while raging with powerful rage).

A similar feature would allow you to act one (or more) size category larger when raging. Combining the two ideas would allow a Barbarian with STR 30 and the lift capability of a gargantuan creature.

But I have a harder time seeing that for a "Fighter"....

I see your point.

Perhaps the Fighter flavor tends moreso a tool-user: weapon, McGuiver gadgets, vehicle pilot, horse rider, and so on.

Mechanically, sure, but how to justify the narrative without it seeming "magical", which is something A LOT of people want to avoid when bumping up the Fighter.

For me, the challenge is coming up with a supporting narrative for such features. I've had little success for those cases with Fighter.

The narrative for a "nonmagical" Fighter can be tricky when advancing to inherently magical levels of level 13 and up.

Part of the solution is the universe itself is magical, and timelines and fates orchestrate "coincidences".

Part of the solution is the magic item itself is actively seeking a worthy wielder. Perhaps it item influences the previous wielder to deposit in the path of the Fighter. Or the Fighter’s own teacher and mentor awards it. It requires a backstory. But like any background, there can be some examples, but ultimately the player decide what the backstory of the magic item is.

Now, again, for other martials not so much. I could see a revised Foe Slayer:

Foe Slayer (level 20 Ranger feature). Your knowledge and understanding of your favored foes is unsurpassed. You gain advantage on attacks made against your favored foes, and your favored foes have disadvantage when attacking you. You also have advantage on saving throws made against your favored foes. Any Intelligence or Wisdom check you make concerning your favored foes cannot roll below a 10.

Perfect Defense (Monk feature). You can spend 1 ki point and enter a state of perfect tranquility. For 1 minute, you have immunity to all damage, but must spend an additional ki point at the start of each of your turns to remain in your trance. (up to 10 ki total)

Yeah, there has to be some trade-off. Whether it is limited use, duration, or some "sacrifice" as you say...

Maybe, but again the narrative is always important to me as well.

I agree. The mechanics and the narrative are equally important.

The narrative needs to get the Fighter flavor right.

 

[Yaarel]

"Agency" isn't who gets to roll the die.

When "I" cast a spell. But the monster rolls to see if it succeeds or fails. It "feels" like the monster has the agency. Not "me".

There is little or no player ACTION to demonstrate that my character is the creator of the magical effect. It should matter if I cast the spell well or not.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Perhaps the Fighter flavor tends moreso a tool-user: weapon, McGuiver gadgets, vehicle pilot, horse rider, and so on.

I think this is part of the issue:

"Fighter" is just too generic as a class. I mean, it has only a handful of class features:

• Second Wind
• Fighting Style
• Action Surge
• Extra Attack (and 2 and 3 of course...)
• Indomitable
• and (if you want to include them) two additional ASIs.

Every other class either gets a LOT more features OR gets spells, or both.

Anyway, perhaps I will move this to another thread as it has nothing to do really with Wizards, and I don't want to threadjack further.

 

[Oofta]

I am pretty sure Hulk Hogan lifted Andre the Giant above his head and then body slammed him. Andre is a LOT heavier than any of my drunk friends.

You apparently haven't met some of my friends.