• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E How do you define “mother may I” in relation to D&D 5E?

Status
Not open for further replies.

pemerton

Legend
Because of the structure of 5E. Because of the lack of advice about it in any of the published 5E material. Because of the lack of clarity and/or specificity in the 5E rulebooks.
To me, this speaks to my reply to @Malmuria just upthread, about sipping potions.

Suppose I was GMing a Classic Traveller game, and the PCs were infiltrating an enemy installation, and they came across unlabelled vessels of liquid. It's highly unlikely they would declare themselves to be sipping from them to try and ascertain the effect they have on a drinker. That isn't something that really makes sense in a sci-fi context. Even if, in the context, there's reason to think these are beverages, the most obvious thing would be to smell them rather than sip them.

Suppose I was GMing a Dragonlance game using 5e D&D, and the PCs were infiltrating an enemy installation (say, the High Clerist's tower), and they came across unlabelled vessels of liquid, would it make sense for them to start sipping them? I don't see how it would. They could be beverages. Or liniments. Or oil for armour or weapons. Or alchemical agents. The variety of liquids that might be kept in unlabelled vessels in a fantasy tower is pretty extensive!

For the sipping thing to even make sense, we have to build in a whole lot of assumptions borne out of the origins of D&D. (As I spelled out in my post.) But there's no need for all 5e D&D play to carry those assumptions with it. For those who want to use 5e to play in the classic fashion, it would seem to make sense to talk about those assumptions, and how conventions of play can be established, and how unhealthy or overly adversarial arms races avoided. And for those who want to use 5e to play something more Dragonlance-y in flavour, it would make sense to talk about a whole different set of assumptions (the Prince Valiant rulebook, which the WotC designers will undoubtedly have access to, gives a nice example of how this can be done) and how those can be used to structure play.

None of this would mean changing the basic dynamic of 5e play. But I think it could help GMs and players find a way to more clearly talk to one another about what they do or don't think is on the table as part of play; what information is expected to be earned and what information can be freely given; what action declarations GMs should take seriously and really try to engage with, and which ones can be more-or-less brushed off. In the last category, for me in my 4e GMing, are most action declarations around looking for secret doors or looting defeated foes. No, there are no secret doors here. That's not what the game is about. Or Yes, you can have their 20 gp and old slightly torn handkerchief, but now can we get back to the real action please!

Frameworks like express stakes-setting, formal ways for players to establish PC goals, etc can also help here, but are probably not going to be part of D&D in its near or even medium-term future. But talking about the different ranges of assumptions that can underpin play, and what that can mean for adjudicating action resolution, seems like something that might be a good fit in a guide for Dungeon Masters.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I would push back pretty hard on this. I do not see my role as the GM, even as someone who prefers the standard power structure, as a benevolent dictator. I'm not there to tell people what to do, to tell them what to think and believe, or to control them in any way. I'm basically there to run a game, and to help turn their proposed actions into something meaningful at the table.
Okay, but those weren't the parallels I was referring to.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Again, mother may I refers to a broken mode of play where the GM is constantly denying players requests.
Because it is, because that is how it has been used in the gaming community for years. And even if it were just a term invented this week for this thread, it obviously has negative connotations in the context of gaming because it is a children's game and it is about a person who has an excess of power over the players (a game that closely resembled mother may I, would be, and is, very unfunny and frustrating for most people).
While MMI has negative connotations, I don't think that this MMI means that it refers strictly to the negation (i.e., the GM's denial of player requests) nor have I seen it used that way "in the gaming community for years." IME, it also refers to player agency of the PC being subject to the permissive whims of the GM (i.e., "no, you may not" AND "yes, you may"). IMHO, "Yes, your character may know/do this" is just as patronizing as "No, your character may not know/do this." While "yes, you may" may be a possible GM output, this can still place the player in a sort of quantum state of knowing or not knowing about what their character can do/know without first running it by the GM in search of permission.

If this is a negative state of GMing, then I think that this is one that reflects both the "yes, you may" and "no, you may not" aspects rather than strictly the latter.
 
Last edited:

overgeeked

B/X Known World
This video is a great introduction to ttrpgs in general, but at this timestamp (23:08) has some particularly good GM advice on some of the points raised in this thread


edit: also, just to elaborate a bit, basically the advice is when a player asks "can I do X," the GM should avoid simply saying "no." Notably, the examples given (strong implied context of dnd) are either not things covered in the rules (e.g. drinking a sip of a potion), or are places where the rules are punitive to the point of discouraging the action (not to mention buried in long rulebooks).
Blanket advice like that isn't very helpful. There will inevitably be times when the referee has to say no to something. Flat out no. No qualifiers. Obvious stuff like trying to fast talk the king into giving the PC their crown and kingdom. Yes, it's a tortured, outlandish example, but players do this kind of thing often enough to make it a problem.

The referee certainly can handle in other ways, "Sure, make a CHA check to see if the king takes your request as a joke or if his throws you in prison. High is good, low is bad."

But other times you'll have to simply, flatly, and in no uncertain terms say no. Sorry, but you can't use the mold earth cantrip as if it makes you an earth bending master...it's a cantrip with very specific limitations. I had a player rage quit on me for that one.

Try to say yes as often as you can, sure. But saying no means you're screwing up as a referee? Terrible advice. The person in the video also seems to assume good faith from players, which is hopefully where most tables are, but it's not always guaranteed. You can typically spot bad faith questions or declarations...like trying to convince the king to give the PC his crown and kingdom.
Not knowing if something regenerates is very unlikely to cause too much friction at the table. It just isn't.
Except when it does. Tell a player their character wouldn't know that trolls regenerate unless damaged by fire and watch what happens. The result will involve friction. Look at this thread. Quite a few posters have laid it out quite clearly that even something as seemingly innocuous as this would be a huge problem for them.
The heart of the problem when it comes to the dividing line between GM-based resolution and MMI is when the DM is placing restrictions on the player that the player finds illogical and cannot be simply reconciled away AND these have fairly large repercussions on how the game is played.
So anytime the player disagrees with the referee's call and it actually matters to the game...which would be basically any time the referee makes a call that goes against what a player wants to happen and any call the referee makes that negatively impacts a PC.
IOW, there's a significant difference between "Do I know if trolls need to be hit with fire" and "If I do this, will I still be a paladin in the morning?" Or, "I jump in the water and swim to the other side." You drown because you're wearing armor" "Uhhh, what??"
Blindly springing consequences like that on players is bad refereeing. Full stop. You warn them first, preferably in game in some way. Like the paladin's holy symbol becoming extremely hot or cracking. The armored character getting into the river and not floating due to the weight of the armor. If subtlety doesn't work, make it plain. Think PbtA with a soft move then a hard move. If that's not enough, pause the game and talk out of character. If they persist, it's on them. I'm not saying I'd do those things in a game, only running with your examples.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
So let's start here, for you, some 5e games devolve into mother may I and some do not.

Do you think that is the stance of others that describe 5e with that term or do they view 5e as being inescapably mother may i?

I think this thread has shown very clearly that people have different ideas of what the term means.

Do you believe my comments have been toward those that believe 5e can devolve into mother may i or to those that believe it is always mother may i?

I have no idea.

Then perhaps my comments have not been to you.

I was replying to a comment you made to me.

You said alot of words here but nothing of substance that's going to further the discussion. I'll take that to mean you aren't interested in pursuing this part of the discussion further.

And here I thought I said too much.

What about the structure of 5E would you say discourages Mother May I?

What bit of advice from the PHB or DMG would you say discourages Mother May I?

Which of the published adventures do you think do a good job of avoiding Mother May I? How do they do so?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I think this thread has shown very clearly that people have different ideas of what the term means.
(y)
I have no idea.



I was replying to a comment you made to me.
Which was a reply to a comment you made to me...

And here I thought I said too much.

What about the structure of 5E would you say discourages Mother May I?

What bit of advice from the PHB or DMG would you say discourages Mother May I?

Which of the published adventures do you think do a good job of avoiding Mother May I? How do they do so?
...I asked you a question, complained when you answer it in the vaguest way possible and then you flip the question back at me while still not providing any real substance in the answer. I'm not sure how to take that.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Which was a reply to a comment you made to me...

So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

...I asked you a question, complained when you answer it in the vaguest way possible and then you flip the question back at me while still not providing any real substance in the answer. I'm not sure how to take that.

You asked me what makes me believe that Mother May I is a possible pitfall for 5E that can happen to even capable and well intentioned GMs.

I answered that it’s the way the game is structured. The way the game is presented. My experiences with the game. Those of others I’ve talked with. My previous comments in this thread have elaborated on most of these points.

You pressed, so I asked you some questions because those were the questions that lead me to believe what I do.

If you have answers to those questions, then maybe there is something to discuss. If not, then we can disengage. It’s fine.
 

pemerton

Legend
Blanket advice like that isn't very helpful. There will inevitably be times when the referee has to say no to something. Flat out no. No qualifiers. Obvious stuff like trying to fast talk the king into giving the PC their crown and kingdom. Yes, it's a tortured, outlandish example, but players do this kind of thing often enough to make it a problem.
Really? Which players? How often? I've been GMing for a long time and don't recall ever seeing it.

So anytime the player disagrees with the referee's call and it actually matters to the game...which would be basically any time the referee makes a call that goes against what a player wants to happen and any call the referee makes that negatively impacts a PC.
This is a fairly strident way of paraphrasing the post you quoted, which referred to restrictions on the player that the player finds illogical and cannot be simply reconciled away AND these have fairly large repercussions on how the game is played.

@Hussar has given a clear illustration of his point: swimming in armour. Suppose that a D&D game (or, for that matter, a FKR game) is emulating Aragorn's capture of the corsairs' vessels and subsequent piloting of them to the harbour south of Minas Tirith so as to help relieve the assault from Mordor. The GM describes the boats approaching the docks, and then the player of the Aragorn-esque character describes their PC unfurling their banner; and then the GM describes the enemy soldiers on the shore unleashing volleys of arrows at the vessels. And so the player - worried that the arrows might hurt the NPC sailors and soldiers, but confident of their PC's ability to take on some 0-level NPC archers - declares that he leaps into the water and swims/wades to shore.

It's not absurd that something like this should come up in play; it's well within the scope of mainstream fantasy adventure. It's also, in my experience, not something likely to arise in "session zero": I've never had a player ask about how swimming in armour will be adjudicated at my table prior to it actually coming up in play.

There are any number of ways a table might come to a consensus on what happens to the armoured warrior who tries to swim/wade to shore. They don't all have to involve unilateral GM authority. If the GM calls for some sort of check that reflects the PC's strength, agility, and/or proficiency with armour, that would be "negatively impacting" the PC - ie it renders full success less than automatic - but hardly seems likely to provoke a "rage quit".

On the other hand, if the GM just declares "You sink to the bottom of the river and drown" - which I think is the actual example that Hussar gave - that strikes me as terrible GMing. The idea that a seasoned, heroic warrior wouldn't have a general sense of their ability to swim/wade to shore while wearing their battle harness is just absurd (or "illogical" in Hussar's words).

Blindly springing consequences like that on players is bad refereeing. Full stop. You warn them first, preferably in game in some way.
Why do it preferably in game? Why are we assuming that an Aragorn-esque character needs omens or foreshadowing to know what is physically possible for them while wearing amour?

But also, why is the GM's conception of what is possible to be done while armoured to be given priority? There's an obvious answer to this in the case of free kriegspiel - the referee is an expert, who is leading a training exercise. But given the wildly different purpose of RPGing, even RPGing with a wargaming flavour, I don't see the rationale at all. Table consensus (whether or not mediated via rules) seems to me the better way to go.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
It doesn't. But if you are going to have a term describing a thing, it shouldn't only describe it in its failed state.
I'm not doing so though. I'm providing a criticism. You're the one bringing in this idea that it needs to be a universal theory of strong DM authority. I am not saying that literally all possible forms of DM authority are this. I'm saying it is an extremely common problem, which can and should be addressed, and which many advocates of absolute DM authority overlook (or, worse, desire.)

I think it is obvious why benevolent dictator is not a good term. I mean mother may has bad connotations, but I at least understand why its used in these conversations. Invoking dictatorship to describe a style of game you dislike is of course going to get you push back.

I'd say traditional GM authority, or virtually any other term, other than benevolent dictatorship captures it. See my example about telling players what to do. A dictator tells people what to do and makes rules they have to follow. A GM doesn't tell players what to do, and still is expected to abide by the system. If the GM suddenly says, we are going to resolve this using the GURPS mechanics now, the players are likely to stop letting that person GM. People let you be their GM. You don't just remain GM because you want to even though no one is having fun.
And what I'm telling you is, actual living DMs are doing that specific thing. A lot. (Usually more in the form of telling people what they can't do, or levying penalties for things they have done/attempted, but still.) And claiming 5e directly supports them doing so. Further, if anyone isn't on board for that, they are (again, openly) told they know where the door is. Your confidence that people will give up a game when there is social pressure from other players to stay, and when it can be incredibly difficult to find a DM (believe me, I would know...), seems rather misplaced. Sometimes people do remain GM because they want to, even though at least one player isn't having fun. Because sometimes, it's that hard to find a DM. I've rescued a friend from such a situation, and the game I rescued him from was, in fact, 5e.

I've certainly played with GMs who wielded the authority in a way that made the game a lot less fun and so I didn't play with them again. But as unfun as it was, it didn't feel like a dictatorship to me. Perhaps if the GM were behaving in an abusive way and berating people, I would invoke language like that. But I wouldn't invoke it for the power arrangement in a game.
How would that be a benevolent dictatorship? I don't associate benevolence with "behaving in an abusive way and berating people." A dictator is someone with absolute power. The word has a strong negative connotation in English because such absolute power has a tendency to manifest very negative behaviors in human beings, but its literal meaning is nothing more and nothing less than "a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession." The "especially" clause is important because that means it's optional but very commonly intended unless common sense says otherwise. I think we can agree that common sense here indicates that a DM is not exercising absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession, so only the part before "especially" is relevant here. A benevolent dictator, then, is someone who exercises absolute power benevolently, with good intent, trying to produce a positive situation. That would seem to be the exact antithesis of "behaving in an abusive way and berating people." Certainly they might manipulate people, but abuse and berate? No.

I don't play 5E. Maybe they do have sucky advice. I can't say. But I seriously doubt this is what they say about rulings and fiat. I've never played an edition where there wasn't some set of principles behind why and when you countermand a rule. Yes the GM has the power to countermand rules, but you are expected to do that in service to the game, not on a whim.
"Expected." "Should." "Not supposed to." These are the problems, because they are never mentioned. They go unsaid. By comparison, several well-designed games, some "light," some "heavy," some "old-school," some "modern," etc. etc., actually DO discuss these things, sometimes spending entire chapters on the subject, and are so much better for it.

And again, the GM doesn't have full power over the group when it comes to deciding these matters. If a given GM decides he doesn't like levels 11-20 and only wants to run campaigns levels 1-10, he has to make the case to that to the group. They aren't going to buy into it otherwise.
And, as I've said several times, the presentation from numerous 5e DMs--claiming to have the explicit support of the game books and designers--is that they do have that power and can do such things, and that the one and only recourse players have is to vote with their feet.

I believe Mother May I is something that capable and well meaning GMs can easily fall into without realizing it. I think it’s good to talk about it as a possible pitfall of 5E based on how the game works. So in that sense, I don’t think it’s useless at all.
Fully agreed on both counts. Hence why I keep talking about things like "perverse incentives," bad advice, poorly-designed rules, etc. Being inflexible and capricious does not require malign intent. Malign intent will often produce such things, particularly in a game where GM authority is so central and emphasized, but they can happen even with someone intending to do right by the players. Like that video that Malmuria recently posted, where the presenter openly admitted that he used to say "no" most of the time and laments having done so. He did not have malign intent when doing that.

Blindly springing consequences like that on players is bad refereeing. Full stop.
And yet early D&D has this sort of thing all over the place. No-warning instant death traps. Cursed items specifically made to resemble beneficial items. Letting players taste potions to identify them....and then introducing dangerous potions with similar flavors. Ear seekers, for God's sake. Things specifically and intentionally designed to be "gotchas." This wasn't just Tomb of Horrors stuff, tournament modules taken out of context. This was bog-standard play.

Is it any wonder why players wanted some ground rules?

...I asked you a question, complained when you answer it in the vaguest way possible and then you flip the question back at me while still not providing any real substance in the answer. I'm not sure how to take that.
Then, if I may, allow me.
Maybe it is better to say,

if MMI describes more than the fail state then what is it actually criticizing?

Because i don't believe those using the term believe it's only applicable to a failed state.
One way it can be used is to look at situations that have already failed, yes. Another way is to look at things at risk of failure, and ask how these concerns can be addressed. A third way is to look for alternative approaches (whether within the DM-authority-maximalist space, or not) which forestall the issue before it even begins, perhaps a DM striving to implement preventative measures. A fourth way is to look at the rules and presentation in a ruleset, asking whether those things encourage or discourage this kind of situation, making it a question of game design rather than DM practice, and one of considering how play is likely to occur, not how it has occurred at a specific table.

And, a final way, as demonstrated by Ovinomancer in this thread, is just...to speak of DM-authority-maximalist gaming in general, without any criticism applied at all. That's technically not an answer to your question because you asked for critique, but it's worth noting nonetheless.
 

Hussar

Legend
Blanket advice like that isn't very helpful. There will inevitably be times when the referee has to say no to something. Flat out no. No qualifiers. Obvious stuff like trying to fast talk the king into giving the PC their crown and kingdom. Yes, it's a tortured, outlandish example, but players do this kind of thing often enough to make it a problem.

And yet, in forty years of gaming I’ve never seen anything even close to that level of player unreasonability.

Otoh, I’ve seen far far more examples of dictatorial dms forcing their views of what the game should be on the players.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top