D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Oofta]

I don't really worry about the wizard feeling powerful after level 4 (and almost no class feels particularly powerful before 5 anyway, with a possible exception for Moon Druid). I've never seen a high level wizard that didn't feel powerful in play.

What I am concerned about is martials feeling powerful when played. Because I don't think they do. They have staying power, but that's not the same.

If the fighter had a no save instant death ability (even once per day) that would feel powerful.

Indomitable doesn't count? It's not legendary resistance, but that's reserved for monsters.

If they could tear through a porticulis like it were made of paper, that would feel powerful.

So they need Hulk or Superman levels of strength? Able to throw tanks like they were frisbees?

If they could single handedly stare down an entire regiment of soldiers and make them back down (without relying on DM fiat) that would feel powerful.

Can any class do that? Exactly what kind of power would this be? It's quite situational, but you're talking about what ... super intimidate?

But a 20th level fighter cannot do any of these things.

You clearly have a different definition of powerful than I, or people I play with, do. What you're talking about is mythic level/comic book superhero. You want demigods, I want mortals who are fighters of legend but still ultimately mortal. I've played martial types to 20th level and they felt plenty powerful to me.

I agree that your suggestions would make them powerful. I have no idea how you'd balance it out. I also don't see how it would fit D&D.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

This, though, is what I think is the most important argument. Because at the end of the day, it's not about whether wizards are technically powerful, but whether they feel powerful when played.

Have no idea what you are getting at here.

The fighter is...a fighter. And I think that it's okay to have a class defined by combat to be the best at adapting to all forms of combat. They can be a great frontliner and backliner without significantly changing their character. In fact, a physical spread of ASI's lets a fighter keep up with any given other more specialized form of martial.

It's possible to do this but shouldn't it then be:

Fighter
Combat 10
Exploration 1
Social 1

Wizard
Combat 5
Exploration 5
Social 5

But it's more like

Wizard
Combat 8 (some would argue 10 with the ability to do other things besides lower HP)
Exploration 8
Social 5

What convinces you that they wouldn't re-invent the Eldritch Knight? Or the monk?

Maybe slightly different features, but similar overall builds.

I don't think it would be slightly different features -- I think there would be a huge different. Structure might be similar in that there are only so many structures.

I wasn't talking about redesigning the Fighter here though, I was talking about a new mythic martial class with a mandate of 1-8 level = interesting tactical choices and variety of stuff to contribute to combat, not just decreasing HP + some social and /or exploration niche ; 9+ mythic martial powers are fair game. No traditional spellcasting in flavor but all mechanics are fair game.

This person has exposure to sci fi/fantasy/comics but zero rpg exposure.

I suppose there is a version where those Eldrich Knight spells/dailies are reflavored into similar mythic martial abilties at similar refresh. And certainly there could be some kind of point based ability class like Monk.

My hunch though is that even if using these structures, given the fictional martial material they are probably drawing from and the wizard/druid as the "permission level" of power and versatility then we'd get a martial that is a lot more powerful and versatile across the 3 pillars even if using those structures.

Same with none of the mythic martial parameters -- "make a martial class that you think would adventure well with these 2 classes Wizard and Druid from level 1-20".

Without all the historical D&D baggage -- must be mundane, must have no limited use powers, must not have any narrative powers, must be only good at fighting, etc. -- it seems like a person would more likely take a look at the Wizard and Druid and come up with a martial that can do more than just fight through attacking for HP damage and rises in abilites from action hero to herculas/hulk.

I have no problem with the current Fighter if that's what some people want. Let's just also have a martial whose design is unfettered from all this historical baggage. The new class allows a different choice for those that strongly want martial flavor but also the tactical complexity, narrative abilities, etc.

 

[Mecheon]

You clearly have a different definition of powerful than I, or people I play with, do. What you're talking about is mythic level/comic book superhero. You want demigods, I want mortals who are fighters of legend but still ultimately mortal. I've played martial types to 20th level and they felt plenty powerful to me.

Remember though, at this level, Wizards have Wish, a spell that, per its description, lets them just, alter reality. Your fighter should be well beyond 'ordinary mortal' at this stage. Your sheer strength and killing intent should be so palpable that when you stand in front of an army, they can feel it and know they are going to be shredded if they go into battle. You are a living legend who can single-handedly destroy armies.

Martials are fine in combat, its out of combat where they've got literately nothing to do whereas casters just cast "I am now a master of this particular interaction" and dominate that.

I agree that your suggestions would make them powerful. I have no idea how you'd balance it out. I also don't see how it would fit D&D.

A fair few of previous "You hit level 20" things were "You transcend your physical state and become something more (This is a nerf for 3E monks due to spell targetting reason)", it fits D&D perfectly.

And frankly, considering we're competing against "Wish" and, oh, let's just say "A level 20 Twilight Cleric", I don't see balance being much of an issue given the competitors. Being so fierce the mere sight of you causes an army to flee, compared to "I tear open a hole in reality and go to another universe entirely"?

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

You clearly have a different definition of powerful than I, or people I play with, do. What you're talking about is mythic level/comic book superhero. You want demigods, I want mortals who are fighters of legend but still ultimately mortal. I've played martial types to 20th level and they felt plenty powerful to me.

I agree that your suggestions would make them powerful. I have no idea how you'd balance it out. I also don't see how it would fit D&D.

It's the same two perspectives as the whole thread.

You can't see how mythic level / comic super hero can be in D&D but a lot of people already think it exists through high level full spellcasters. If it already exists, then in a team game why not have the martial eqivalent as an option?

Typical fantasy magic users can sometimes do super powerful stuff but usually have severe limitations to magic. Typical situations include --- very limited scope (incredible foresight but no combat or other ability, fire magic combat ability but not much utility, etc.); very limited usage; very high costs to self or others (aging, blood sacrifice, etc.), very poor reliability (you can do it but you might be in for a nasty surprise). It's very uncommon to have the kind of powerful, reliable, versatile, no cost magic of D&D. You tend to only see it in mythic level and super heros in fact.

Mortals who are fighters of legend is a fine thing too. You have it.

Just add the mythic martial too as a seperate optional class as that just expands the kinds of martial concepts and team concepts people can play.

How would it be hard to balance? Against high level spells the limit is very high? From an ability point of view, at high level what changes if the mythic martial can rip off gates or smash through walls? It's just another way for the team to get from A to B. Or create a combat advantage or whatever. Or make an army of non-demi gods retreat before your magesty or wrath? What's the difference if they retreat or get chopped up or metor swarmed to death? It's a unique and cool high level power that isn't easily replicated except maybe by wish or dominate the leader to issue the command or something. But now this 17th level martial can turn back this band without doing any damage. Cool stuff.

You may not like the aesthetics and that's fine -- don't play one and don't allow them in your games. But it's not like this stuff is out of the realm of what spellcasters are already doing.

 

[Oofta]

Remember though, at this level, Wizards have Wish, a spell that, per its description, lets them just, alter reality. Your fighter should be well beyond 'ordinary mortal' at this stage. Your sheer strength and killing intent should be so palpable that when you stand in front of an army, they can feel it and know they are going to be shredded if they go into battle. You are a living legend who can single-handedly destroy armies.

Martials are fine in combat, its out of combat where they've got literately nothing to do whereas casters just cast "I am now a master of this particular interaction" and dominate that.


A fair few of previous "You hit level 20" things were "You transcend your physical state and become something more (This is a nerf for 3E monks due to spell targetting reason)", it fits D&D perfectly.

And frankly, considering we're competing against "Wish" and, oh, let's just say "A level 20 Twilight Cleric", I don't see balance being much of an issue given the competitors. Being so fierce the mere sight of you causes an army to flee, compared to "I tear open a hole in reality and go to another universe entirely"?

If you use wish to do something other than replicate a spell, you risk losing it. Do it enough times and you'll never use it again. The spell also has very specific limitations and examples.

If a fighter is well known, I would certainly allow an intimidation check with a proficiency bonus and using whatever ability they deem appropriate. . I've even granted advantage based on specifics of the campaign history..

But that's a far cry from just doing it, and would fall under DM fiat so it doesn't count.

I don't want to play a power level equivalent of top tier superheroes, that would be a different genre an a different game.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't want to play a power level equivalent of top tier superheroes, that would be a different genre an a different game.

The issue where I think a lot of people are diverging from you is that high level 5e IS a top-tier superhero game. You're talking about a game where the wizard can turn the party into ancient red dragons or angels before a big fight. Or just say a word and straight up kill a dude. Or snap your fingers and walk to another plane.

 

[Garthanos]

Remember though, at this level, Wizards have Wish, a spell that, per its description, lets them just, alter reality. Your fighter should be well beyond 'ordinary mortal' at this stage. Your sheer strength and killing intent should be so palpable that when you stand in front of an army, they can feel it and know they are going to be shredded if they go into battle. You are a living legend who can single-handedly destroy armies.

But are you in 5e? I mean in 4e and 3e there were tools powers and feats you could take to make that much more likely. The 5e designers went into this with a just say no attitude about that in 4e my fighter can pick options to get damage resistance which nullifies low end damage (not reduces) and generate temp hit points continuous ... and in 4e ways to mark and influence many enemies to be distracted by your presence on the battlefield. Even ways to just damage enemies that come adjacent to them.

The 5e fighter I consider lacking in the one man army feel

 

[Oofta]

The issue where I think a lot of people are diverging from you is that high level 5e IS a top-tier superhero game. You're talking about a game where the wizard can turn the party into ancient red dragons or angels before a big fight. Or just say a word and straight up kill a dude. Or snap your fingers and walk to another plane.

I disagree. Wizards are not Dr Strange, sorcerers are not The Scarlet Witch, no one comes close to Superman (in most depictions).

Then again, I'm not sure how anyone in your game is changing everyone to ancient red dragons either. Mass polymorph can only change people into beasts, so something like a T Rex would max it out. You could use polymorph or true polymorph to shape change yourself or someone into a dragon for an hour I suppose, but an ancient red is CR 24. Best you could do would be an ancient white. Power word kill requires the target to have 100 HP or less. I've seen fighters do more than that much damage in a turn on a regular basis.

Unless of course you're talking wish. If the DM is allowing wish to do that, it's far beyond anything I would allow and not in line with the guidelines.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Indomitable doesn't count? It's not legendary resistance, but that's reserved for monsters.

So they need Hulk or Superman levels of strength? Able to throw tanks like they were frisbees?

Can any class do that? Exactly what kind of power would this be? It's quite situational, but you're talking about what ... super intimidate?

You clearly have a different definition of powerful than I, or people I play with, do. What you're talking about is mythic level/comic book superhero. You want demigods, I want mortals who are fighters of legend but still ultimately mortal. I've played martial types to 20th level and they felt plenty powerful to me.

I agree that your suggestions would make them powerful. I have no idea how you'd balance it out. I also don't see how it would fit D&D.

Indomitable shouldn't count. It's absolutely awful. So bad I used it in a previous post about how badly it stacks up as a 9th level ability.

 

[FrogReaver]

But are you in 5e? I mean in 4e and 3e there were tools powers and feats you could take to make that much more likely. The 5e designers went into this with a just say no attitude about that in 4e my fighter can pick options to get damage resistance which nullifies low end damage (not reduces) and generate temp hit points continuous ... and in 4e ways to mark and influence many enemies to be distracted by your presence on the battlefield. Even ways to just damage enemies that come adjacent to them.

The 5e fighter I consider lacking in the one man army feel

Honestly now that we are back to neo-vanician casters a 4e style martial focusing primarily on encounter powers with a huge list to choose from could be really cool.