Weird how only one side of the argument can actually quote sources.
D&D 5E [+]What does your "complex fighter" look like?
Celebrim
Legend
Agreed. One of the biggest reasons I'm approaching the topic as I am is because there is a whole group of people out there that will immediately start wagging their jaws about how "You just don't want martials to have good stuff!" or similar arguments based on assumptions and past grievances.
I shouldn't have to, because it is pretty clear to everyone - including you as you just demonstrated - what I mean by - "Some mechanical approaches to the problem of balancing spell-casters and martials is to simply give the non-spellcasters their own spells." The only people who have a problem with that description are deliberately being obtuse so that they can "score a point" rather than have any sort of legitimate discussion.
So yes, technically, often when I say "spells" I am using this as a short-hand for "spell-like mechanics" but out here in the meta where we are discussing mechanics that isn't much of a distinction. And in the extreme cases, it becomes increasingly disconnected from rational debate to not consider the spell-like mechanic to be de facto a spell. For example, if your solution is the fighter spends 20 minutes in the morning preparing maneuvers, and he has maneuver slots one of which he fills with his once daily 5th level maneuver "Richochet Weapon" that does automatic weapon damage to all foes in in a 50' burst, I don't think it's inappropriate in that context to just agree that's a spell not just at the mechanical level but very likely within the context of the fiction as well. Sure, it's not the same sort of spell or magic as performed by an academic wizard, but it's surely some sort of martial magic. And if that's the aesthetic you are going for, own it and love it with pride. For some games and settings, that may well be perfect.
The only people who are confused are people who have a vested emotional interest in pretending to be confused by this for whatever reason.
Celebrim
Legend
No, that's my point. Both sides can quote the exact same passages and come to the exact opposite conclusions.
It was a great mechanic in that you could key stuff off this "worn down" condition but that wasn't really bloodied either though. Otherwise how could you be inspired back up past the half way line?
This slavish devotion to historial terms like hit points really holds design back.
Imagine if 4e had renamed hit points as "heroic points", healing surges as "heroic surges" and bloodied as "worn down" or whatever. Then explicitly stated that heroic points were not just meat points -- mostly not just meat points.
The passages that explicitly say "only your hit points from first level are meat points"?
Vitality and wound points from 3e Unearthed Arcana/d20 Star Wars Revised worked pretty well for this.
Celebrim
Legend
I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to argue. Gygax as I read him very clearly states both that hit points represent both meat and non-meat. Gygax doesn't attempt to explain exactly what percentage of those hit points at every level come from the variety of possible sources he suggests, but he does suggest that they come from both and does suggest that a high level character that has taken damage is in fact covered with a large number of minor injuries that will require healing. As I read the passage, Gygax is clearly refuting both the "all meat" and "no meat" interpretation. Yet, after I quote the whole thing to some people and indeed after they quote it back to me, they'll claim that in that package Gygax is endorsing that hit points aren't meat at all. I don't think all of them are gas lighting me when they claim that, so that leaves me without an explanation for how they read it and no way to reason with them or they with me.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Undrave
Legend
I would be very happy to see most 4e At-Wills returning as potential techniques a fighter could learn. Here’s a list a thing a 4e Fighter could potentially do at will:
Push the target 5 feet, then let the Fighter follow them into their former space
Trade a little accuracy to inflict extra damage equal to CON
Increase accuracy in exchange for your STR mod damage
Increase accuracy in exchange for making you easier to hit by the target (with extra CON damage if you use an axe, hammer or mace!)
Grant Temp HP on a hit if you have the right class feature
Move 5 feet then slide the enemy into the space you left
Let you grapple the target with your free hand after hitting them
Targeting FORT and then knock the foe prone in exchange for only inflicting STR mod dmg
Inflict half STR mod damage on a miss (full STR with a two-hander)
Gain a modicum of resistance to the target's next attack until the next turn
Use a shield to feint the target and gain a bonus to your next attack until the end of the next turn
Punch the target with a free hand after hitting them
Change weapon as part of the action and gain a benefit based on the type of weapon used
Inflict STR mod damage to a different adjacent creature.
All of these were available from 1st level and had scaling damage. The more interesting ones, IMO, are the ‘trade something for something else’. A bit like how the Barbarian’s Reckless Attack trades you getting Advantage for the opponent getting it in return. Maybe techniques that provide unique effects depending on the weapon use, giving you more interesting ones when using weaker weapons? I had this class feature in mind that went "Gain advantage on attacks made with a Light weapon you drew as part of the attack action." The biggest die such a weapon has is d6.
Push the target 5 feet, then let the Fighter follow them into their former space
Trade a little accuracy to inflict extra damage equal to CON
Increase accuracy in exchange for your STR mod damage
Increase accuracy in exchange for making you easier to hit by the target (with extra CON damage if you use an axe, hammer or mace!)
Grant Temp HP on a hit if you have the right class feature
Move 5 feet then slide the enemy into the space you left
Let you grapple the target with your free hand after hitting them
Targeting FORT and then knock the foe prone in exchange for only inflicting STR mod dmg
Inflict half STR mod damage on a miss (full STR with a two-hander)
Gain a modicum of resistance to the target's next attack until the next turn
Use a shield to feint the target and gain a bonus to your next attack until the end of the next turn
Punch the target with a free hand after hitting them
Change weapon as part of the action and gain a benefit based on the type of weapon used
Inflict STR mod damage to a different adjacent creature.
All of these were available from 1st level and had scaling damage. The more interesting ones, IMO, are the ‘trade something for something else’. A bit like how the Barbarian’s Reckless Attack trades you getting Advantage for the opponent getting it in return. Maybe techniques that provide unique effects depending on the weapon use, giving you more interesting ones when using weaker weapons? I had this class feature in mind that went "Gain advantage on attacks made with a Light weapon you drew as part of the attack action." The biggest die such a weapon has is d6.
Correct. But we have limited time and can go through everything WoTC and adjust for it. We can’t with 3rd party.
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