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D&D (2024) What older setting do you want to see next?

Which older D&D setting would you like to see next?

  • Greyhawk

    Votes: 33 26.2%
  • Mystara

    Votes: 11 8.7%
  • Birthright

    Votes: 12 9.5%
  • Council of Wyrms

    Votes: 3 2.4%
  • Ghostwalk

    Votes: 4 3.2%
  • Nentir Vale/Nerath/Points of Light

    Votes: 25 19.8%
  • Other (please specify in post)

    Votes: 11 8.7%
  • Dark Sun

    Votes: 27 21.4%

  • Poll closed .

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This is but one interpretation, and not necessarily the one that matches Gygax's original vision.


I think you are overlooking the Olman ("Meso American") peoples of the Amedio Jungle, who definitely are not "Suel Whites who lost their Whiteness," as you put it. But both peoples did migrate to the Amedio Jungle from elsewhere (Hepmonaland for the Olman, the Suel Imperium for the "once-Suloise"). The former arguably are more dominant in the area than the latter.
To the contrary, Gygax writes the following objectionable text in his World of Greyhawk setting.

"
SULOISE. The fleeing Suel folk were scattered in a broadcast fasshion across the Flanaess, so that many tended to mix with other groups.

The Suel RACE (!) is very fair-skinned, some almost albino.

They have light, red, yellow, blond, or platinum hair. Eye color varies from pale blue or violet through deep blue, with gray occasionally occuring. Curly hair is common.

The inhabitants of the Dutchy of Ernst are nearly PURE Suel RACE (!).

The Frost, Ice, and Snow BARBARIANS are the BEST example [of racial purity].

The Suel folk are quite predominant in the island groups off the eastern coast of the Flanaess [such as the Jerlea Sea] as well as in the [N*zi] SCARLET BROTHERHOOD region.

Those BANDS that migrated into the [Central America] Amedio JUNGLE and [South America] Hepmonaland are so ALTERED (!) as to be no longer typical of the RACE (!): they are TAN to BROWN.

"

Yeah. No.

How does Suel offend? Let me count the ways.
 

Didn't Blackmoor get folded into Greyhawk?
Yes. Blackmoor is a region in the farthest north of the subcontinent Flannaess.

The map marks a location of "Ruins". I suspect Gygax intended for this to be destruction of the Town of Blackmoor, after the personal falling out between Gygax and Arneson. Nevertheless, the relative location of these ruins actually correspond to Ringo Hall, an elven city that is also in the Blackmoor region. The Town of Blackmoor itself is actually to the west on the coast where the peninsula joins the mainland. In other words, the town still exists but remains modest with a small population.
 

@Yaarel... I am not disagreeing that the descriptions of the Suel (Amedi and continental) you cited are problematic.

I was merely disagreeing with your characterization of the Flannae as "indigenous peoples from Canada or the US" (which is not necessarily supported by Gygax), and of the Amedi Suel as the main indigenous population of the Amedio Jungle (i.e., you overlook the OLMAN, who are not at all related to the Suel).

"Little is known of the Amedio Jungle, except that it is inhabited by tribes of cannibal savages--some purportedly of Suloise extraction or admixture." (Gygax, A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting, 1983, p. 56, emphasis added).

Of course, the reference to "cannibal savages" is itself problematic, and although the Guide appears to have been written by Gygax from the point of view of an unreliable narrator, I can see why WotC would want to avoid that kind of language/depiction today, as well as that referring to the self-perceived "purity" of the Suel.

I won't get into an in-depth discussion of Gygaxian interpretations of the Flannae, so as to not further derail this thread.

p.s.: I don't worship the ground Gygax walks on, nor do I put him or any other game designers (or anyone else) on a pedestal. Just wanting to correct some inaccuracies in your observations is all.
 
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@Yaarel... I am not disagreeing that the descriptions of the Suel (Amedi and continental) you cited are problematic.

I was merely disagreeing with your characterization of the Flannae as "indigenous peoples from Canada or the US" (which is not necessarily supported by Gygax), and of the Amedi Suel as the main indigenous population of the Amedio Jungle (i.e., you overlook the OLMAN, who are not at all related to the Suel).

"Little is known of the Amedio Jungle, except that it is inhabited by tribes of cannibal savages--some purportedly of Suloise extraction or admixture." (Gygax, A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting, 1983, p. 56, emphasis added).

Of course, the reference to "cannibal savages" is itself problematic, and although the Guide appears to have been written by Gygax from the point of view of an unreliable narrator, I can see why WotC would want to avoid that kind of language/depiction today, as well as that referring to the self-perceived "purity" of the Suel.

I won't get into an in-depth discussion of Gygaxian interpretations of the Flannae, so as to not further derail this thread.

p.s.: I don't worship the ground Gygax walks on, nor do I put him or any other game designers (or anyone else) on a pedestal. Just wanting to correct some inaccuracies in your observations is all.
Flannaess drives from the earlier Castles & Crusades map that intentionally stylizes North America. The City of Greyhawk corresponds to Chicago and the Town of Blackmoor corresponds to a remote town on Hudson Bay in Canada, where the town of Churchill is.

The Flan are inspired by the reallife Indigenous of these same locations and elsewhere in North America.

The Flannae are the "native" "tribes" of Flannaess, who are "hunters", being the "first humans" to arrive in the continent. Their "bronze" skin ranges from red "copper" to dark brown; the hair black or brown; and similarly, the eyes "dark brown, black, brown", or for a touch of fantastic exoticism, "amber". Etcetera. These intentionally describe Indigenous Americans. Unfortunately, Gygax evaluates these Indigenous as having "made no appreciable civilizating efforts". Meanwhile, they speak "a stagnant language" that is "difficult to translate modern concepts into". Moreover, where he defines these ethnicities as human "races", his commentary is actually racist.

Illustrations that portray the Flan display Indigenous American material culture, even war paint.

The Flan are the fantasy version of Indigenous North America.
 
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Flannaess drives from the earlier Castles & Crusades map that intentionally stylizes North America. The City of Greyhawk corresponds to Chicago and the Town of Blackmoor corresponds to a remote town on Hudson Bay in Canada, where the town of Churchill is.

The Flan are inspired by the reallife Indigenous of these same locations and elsewhere in North America.

The Flannae are the "native" "tribes" of Flannaess, who are "hunters", being the "first humans" to arrive in the continent. Their "bronze" skin ranges from red "copper" to dark brown; the hair black or brown; and similarly, the eyes "dark brown, black, brown", or for a touch of fantastic exoticism, "amber". Etcetera. These intentionally describe Indigenous Americans. Unfortunately, Gygax evaluates these Indigenous as having "made no appreciable civilizating efforts". Meanwhile, they speak "a stagnant language" that is "difficult to translate modern concepts into". Moreover, where he defines these ethnicities as human "races", his commentary is actually racist.

Illustrations that portray the Flan display Indigenous American material culture, even war paint.

The Flan are the fantasy version of Indigenous North America.
Using a map North America as the basis from which to trace the map of a fantasy world does not automatically make the indigenous peoples of the fantastical continent equivalent to indigenous North Americans.

And being Canadian, I guess I never realized that North American indigenous peoples were led by Atamans (see entry for the Rovers of the Barrens, one of the few "pure" Flan territories left in the setting, as per p. 33 of the Guide; also see Gygax in Dragon Mag #57, pp. 13-14). How silly of me. I'll let my indigenous friends know right away so that they can correct their respective histories.

Yes, the description of the Flannae and associated art (to my knowledge, there's only one Gygax-era illustration showing humans of different ancestries, on p. 15 of the Guide) certainly could lead one to conclude that they are modelled after indigenous North Americans. I'm not sure how well that illustration matched Gygax's own vision for the Flannae, but that's a moot point. And David Howery's adventure, "Ghost Dance," in Dungeon Mag #32 (1991) only reinforced the "indigenous North American" image of the Flannae/Rovers of the Barrens. So there certainly is evidence to support your argument.

Still, the title "Ataman" suggests that Gygax had more in mind for the Flannae than merely making them analogous to "North American indigenous peoples" (which in itself is a broad overgeneralization of hundreds of different nations with different languages, customs, technology, beliefs, etc). And I can think of other peoples around the world among whom "bronze" skin, black/brown hair, and black/brown (or, less often, amber) eyes are common, who were/are accomplished warriors and hunters.

Here are a few quotes direct from Gygax, not paraphrases:

"Flannae. The Flan race have a bronze-colored complexion. This varies from a lighter, almost copper shade to a very dark tone which is deepest brown. Eye color is commonly dark brown, black, brown, or amber (in declining order of occurrence). Hair coloration is black, brown-black, dark brown, or brown." (Gygax, Guide to the WoG, p. 13, emphasis added).

"The original Flannae stock shows up with either Oeridian or Suloise or both as a coppery or bronze overtone [suggesting the default coloration is "brown" or "deepest brown"]. . . A hybrid of Baklunish and Flannae gives a golden-copper or golden-bronze color which is possibly the most attractive complexion of any of the admixtures of the basic races." (Gygax, Guide to the WoG, p. 14).

So the "pure white Suel" aren't the paragons of human beauty according to Gygax or his unreliable narrator? Interesting.

The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has art that again makes the Flannae vaguely resemble indigenous North Americans, but the Old Faith they purportedly follow (and the related Old Lore bardic colleges) have a more Celtic feel... and the Rovers are still led by Atamans. This once again confirms that, even in the post-Gygax era, the Flannae are more complex as a fictional race/ancestry than a cursory reading might otherwise suggest.

I'm not denying that there are problematic racist generalizations/implications in much gaming content, old and new (including in Gygax and the World of Greyhawk). I also approve of efforts to provide a deeper understanding of the complexities of racism (and other isms), and to foster appreciation for diversity in all its forms, both within our hobby and in society-at-large. I think you and I are on the same page with regards to this.

But I still think you're going too far in presenting your interpretations as fact, and in ascribing nefarious motives where none may have been intended. Racism in all its forms is unacceptable, but people unfortunately don't always realize when they're making racist statements or behaving in a manner that reinforces racism/racist stereotypes. And then, there's the issue of the unreliable narrator, which I wouldn't just hand wave away and claim with certitude that it's merely a reflection of the author's point of view.


I'll say no more on the subject.


EDIT:

Sorry, I lied. Just wanted to add this...

Riddle me this. Where did the first Europeans migrate from? What did they look like? How did they survive?

And where do archaeologists think the ancestors of indigenous North Americans came from?

I suspect that Gygax knew the answers to those questions when he developed the World of Greyhawk.

The Flanaess is a fantastical world inspired by medieval Europe, peopled with pseudo-Vikings, pseudo-Huns, etc. Stating that the Flannae are equivalent to indigenous North Americans because Blackmoor Town holds the same position on a map as Churchill, Manitoba (thanks for the geography lesson), and Greyhawk the same place as Chicago, doesn't confirm or deny anything, aside from your own interpretation of what it means to be "indigenous" in the Flanaess.
 
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Well, the poll doesn't include the very first setting of rpg history, Blackmoor. I would have voted for it...
But given what someone has done in the past with the revamping of Blackmoor for 3.5, i prefer not to see any further re-edition of the gems of the past (for the announcment of a new edition of Planescape for instance i have bad feelings on the final outcome...).
I second the idea to leave the "good ideas working in the past" as they are and find smtg new for the audience of these days.
I thought Arneson was involved in the Goodman Games 3.5 version of it. It was the most commercially supported version of the setting to date, I believe.

I think the big strike against Blackmoor is that it's had multiple bites of the apple, under TSR and elsewhere, and it's never particularly caught fire. I think Blackmoor is less likely than anything in this survey. There simply isn't much of a demonstrated audience for it and if WotC wanted to show off the magic vs. technology stuff in Blackmoor, they have multiple other ways to do so.
 



Don't underestimate the nostalgia play with. 50 year old property held by an IP obsessed toy manufacturer
Right. I think there's a 49% chance we'll see a one-off Greyhawk setting book in 2024 for just that reason, most likely centered around the City of Greyhawk.

But I see a 51% chance of them saying "you know, we could just give the larger existing audience what many of them are clamoring for, and do a big Forgotten Realms setting book." (That said, it won't be the 3E Forgotten Realms book, but something more modest and focused in nature, probably reprinting and replacing the Sword Coast book with more information about Waterdeep.)
 

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