D&D 5E Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?

[Minigiant]

I think it is neither.

I think the designer intent is absolutely to deliver a reasonable, balanced, equitable game where everyone contributes meaningfully and no one has an inherent leg up nor needs special DM intervention.

However, I also think that this result is not some totally unforeseeable unfortunate accident that could never have been avoided or dealt with.

Instead, as I've said, I think it's the combination of several factors:
1. Intentionally doing things that sound positive and beneficial in isolation but which link together to produce problems.
2. Preserving, reviving, or enhancing "tradition" without actually examining whether that tradition is beneficial, or whether it has aspects that could be mitigated.
3. Subconscious motives that encourage greater power for spellcasting and no gain (or even sometimes loss) of power for non-spellcasting.
4. Biased thinking, particularly biases built on thinking everyone will play in certain ways or deal with problems in the same fashion.
5. Faulty understanding/application of statistics and mathematics more generally.
6. Failure to account for player psychology in the design.

None of these require "let's make an unbalanced game!" as an intentional motive, and yet all of them are the product of intentional (if sometimes heedless) actions. Which is why I say it is intentional, but not because the intent was to make an inequitable game.

That's why I said both.

The intention was a little purposeful imbalance what would be shrouded by playing the way the designers play.

The mistake was them making too many assumptions based on themselves and accidentally creating imbalance that is barely contained by the limits of the guidelines.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I can literally find you a 25 links to threads in this forum alone where the opposite is argued.

and yet in this thread right now you have been given example after example including warlocks...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes. So... you should treat their experience with as much respect

That's the reason. The 5MWD, and inexperienced DMs. It's not an inherent feature of the Wizard class.

you must have very little respect for your own DMing experience if this is you giving us as much

 

[DND_Reborn]

Unless DMs forbid feats, which a huge number do, as I have been repeatedly reminded.

I would love to know who is spreading such lies!

On EnWorld, at least, that is certainly not the case. In the poll I did, over 90% of games use feats IIRC. Now, multiclassing was much less, like 50-60% or so.

You in? Or do I win by default?

I'll also play!

Just let me know the level and character creation rules.

Now you just need two more. @FitzTheRuke and @Smythe the Bard both played when I ran the Vecna battle simulations, so they might be willing to join.

I've yet to see any statistical evidence from the 'Wizards are God' camp either. In the 8 years of these threads being posted.

Well, there is this:

D&D 5E - What Level 20 Class Would Win?

So, here's a question. What level 20 class do you think would win a 1 on 1 combat against any other class? There are no magic items allowed, unless you have class abilities that give you them. You get your subclass abilities, and get to choose your spells beforehand knowing that you're going...

www.enworld.org

 

[Micah Sweet]

That works great if you roll for stats, but rolling for stats is only fun if you can build your character in 5 minutes when they inevitably died when the d20 forsakes you.

Standard array or point build means you can always hit the prerequisite you desire so it doesn't matter.

Except that’s not quite what I wanted out of this thread.

We were in that actual thread and ECMO3, rather than deny that OP spellcaster existed said, to paraphrase:

“Of course, the Wizard is the most powerful class! He’s the WIZARD! It makes total sense! Hence why WOTC made it the most powerful class. You can totally tell just from the fluff and the mechanics and the Fighter is the worst class. The game is way more fun when there’s a stronger class.”

And I wanted to know who else shared his opinion, who had the same reading of the PHB.

If they're so unpopular, that seems like a major flaw in the system to me...

It  is a major flaw in the system. This ground has been trod over many times.

 

[Composer99]

I'm going to have to come down to saying that the imbalance is intentional.

I don't know that the Next design team intended to make imbalanced classes as such.

Nevertheless, they intentionally made spellcasting scale from sleep to hypnotic pattern to wall of stone, with a vast array of specified discrete combat and non-combat options, and martial capabilities not really scale apart from more damage, in the "front 10" levels alone (with a few exceptions such as Battle master or hunter ranger tricks), with a trickle of defined non-combat functionality outside of spellcasting (mostly confined to Expertise for bards and rogues, Natural Explorer for rangers, and a few other tricks for rogues), never mind the "back 10" when we get stuff like planar ally or wish versus... your third use of Indomitable in a day or a third die on Brutal Critical! (Whew!)

They made those design decisions, and I don't think they were so dense as to be unable to imagine what the consequences would be. So, yes, intentional.

 

[Parmandur]

Problematic question, because the Classrs are balanced along hit point lines, dage and healing over an Adventure day. Now, is yhe asymmetrical design of the Classes intentional? Absolutely, 100%. And that works because they are balanced.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Now you just need two more. @FitzTheRuke and @Smythe the Bard both played when I ran the Vecna battle simulations, so they might be willing to join.

Not up on this thread, but I'm probably in. What are we doing?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Not up on this thread, but I'm probably in. What are we doing?

@Flamestrike is looking for players to play in an "adventuring day", postulating that wizards are not overly powerful (in a nutshell).

If you're interested and check the last five pages or so you can backtrack the original line of discussion.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

@Flamestrike is looking for players to play in an "adventuring day", postulating that wizards are not overly powerful (in a nutshell).

If you're interested and check the last five pages or so you can backtrack the original line of discussion.

So we'll run through 6-8 encounters with a party of 4-5 with two short rests and see who does the most damage over the course of the day? I wanna play the rogue! I betchya I can win the damage contest, and I'm terrible at optimizing! What level?