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Scenario and setting design, with GM and players in mind

hawkeyefan

Legend
This is intriguing. Can you say more?

In thinking of how we design settings and scenes, I think it’s better for a GM to introduce elements with the intention that the players will discover them, not with the intention that the GM will at some point reveal them.

So looking at the admittedly roughly sketched idea of the PC patron that turns out to be a vampire… far better to design this situation with the means for the players to learn this on their own. Clues of some sort, friendly NPCs who may offer info, unfriendly NPCs who they can leverage, and so on. These are the kinds of levers I think you’re talking about (or, at least, examples of such; there are other kinds for sure).

If the patron’s true nature isn’t discovered by the players, but instead revealed by the GM like a third act twist we’ve all seen in genre fiction, I think it’s far less meaningful as a game. The scenario is problematic for several reasons, especially the longer into the game it occurs, but I think this is the main concern.

It puts the players in a passive state of participation.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to design settings with such revelations in mind. I don’t want to watch the GM pull the blanket away and marvel that the bunny’s gone. I want to be an active participant in what’s happening in the game.

I hope that makes sense.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Why, over the last few years, has the Emperor become steadily more unpredictable in his rulings and actions? The GM knows. The players/PCs, however, will only find out if they specifically dig into it (i.e. take on as an adventure or mission the job of investigating what's going on with the Emperor). Otherwise, they might find out somewhat later if someone else does the digging and it becomes public knowledge, or they might never find out at all.
Again, to me this looks like you are describing GM solitaire play here.

And the players/PCs may or may not care about any of it. For all I know it could just be background colour for them. That doesn't mean I'm not going to mention it now and then when appropriate.
Upthread you mentioned this, which does not seem like background colour:

they might learn that their long-time mentor is in fact a vampire, (and has been all along) who may or may not have been manipulating the party's actions for years in order to suit his own ends.
This seems like a complete reframing of the significance of big chunks of the action the players have had their PCs take over a period of play (given you say "long-time mentor").

Thinking here of a situation where none of the players knew in advance what was coming nor had any hand in setting it up. How can there be a reveal without there being anything secret to reveal?
I've discussed this with you and others in other threads. As it's off-topic for this one I'll just post a link to one of those other threads:thoughts on Apocalypse World? (and the ensuing pages to the end of the thread).
 

pemerton

Legend
@hawkeyefan, thanks for the reply!

To try and repeat it back to you so as to demonstrate my understanding:

* By "revelation", you mean the GM preparing to announce a bit of fiction down the track at some dramatically weighty moment; with an intention to do their best to keep unrevealed until that point.

* By "discovery" you mean the GM establishing something in their notes etc, with an eye towards what action declaration(s) the players might make that would oblige them to announce this bit of fiction. That "eye" should be at work both in planning, and in adjudication during actual play.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
@hawkeyefan, thanks for the reply!

To try and repeat it back to you so as to demonstrate my understanding:

* By "revelation", you mean the GM preparing to announce a bit of fiction down the track at some dramatically weighty moment; with an intention to do their best to keep unrevealed until that point.

* By "discovery" you mean the GM establishing something in their notes etc, with an eye towards what action declaration(s) the players might make that would oblige them to announce this bit of fiction. That "eye" should be at work both in planning, and in adjudication during actual play.

Absolutely what I was thinking of in the first part. And very much so with the second, though I think the methods used will vary depending on the game.

The kinds of levers and facts on the ground seem to matter far more to discovery than to revelation, as I’m using the terms here.
 

How can we design scenarios and settings to enable players to find the facts on the ground and to provide them with enough levers in the fiction to interact with? What sorts of scenario and setting will generate an internal causality that is meaningfully knowable and comprehensible?
This is a really good question and I think far too many RPGs, historically, have been designed without considering these factors.

Spire: The City Must Fall is a great example of succeeding at what you're asking. Despite the setting being a miles-tall tower full of Drow being oppressed by High Elves, in a sort of 19th-century-ish setting full of weird magic and customs, it's immediately accessible to players because virtually everything in the Spire is conceptually analogous to real-world stuff, and the setting and scenarios are very carefully written to ensure that there are tons of levers accessible. I've never seen it done quite as well as this - the Sin sourcebook which just came out is truly spectacular in terms of levers, in that virtually every NPC and organisation is written in a way that it's going to be possible to manipulate it. The scenarios in Sin are likewise great.

A lot of that comes from writing flawed NPCs, flawed organisations, imperfect situations. Avoiding all-round badasses or organisations that are simply hypercompetent.

Re: causality, the setting is literally about change and achieving change, so the setting is designed to sustain and survive change in that you succeed in changing X here, it doesn't necessarily throw the entire setting off, and the consequences of achieving X are going to be fairly logical, and again the game makes sure to keep the GM looking at the consequences, like asking themselves "If the players are trying to do X, who will be trying to stop them? If X is achieved, how will people react? Who will try to take advantage, who will be having problems, and so on". Part of this means having a lot of factions which have somewhat overlapping functions. This is how the real world is, for the most part, especially outside of 20th and 21st century governments (but even they have a multiplicity of overlapping bureaucracies, and attempts to stop them overlapping tend to create gaps/cracks/holes people fall into - in some cases literally, with road management!).

So anyway I'd contrast Spire, which does it right, with Shadowrun, which for my money did it painfully wrong. Shadowrun, in virtually all editions, has huge problems with all three areas you describe.

1) It's much harder in Shadowrun for the players to find the "facts on the ground", because they're not where you expect them to be, and the setting is absolutely solid with people who don't want to tell you things, often would rather shoot you than give you the time of day (to a genuinely unrealistic-seeming degree), and the PCs aren't empowered to find those facts. Adventures/scenarios for Shadowrun often struggle hard to deliver the facts to the PCs. In at least a couple of cases they had a sort of primitive improvised "fail forwards" in that they essentially say to the DM "If PCs just fail at all this, have X NPC send them this!", which isn't er... great (it's not a proper fail forwards).

2) The hostile design of the setting and scenarios for Shadowrun, where the NPCs are typically described as either psychopathic, hypercompetent, or both, together the general "make them work for it" vibe creates a situation where it's very hard to find levers. The PC can, with effort, sometimes create levers, but there are typically few presented, and they often require very specialized setups or peculiar approaches (pixel-hunts) to discover.

3) On top of all of this, Shadowrun shares a common unfortunate trait with a lot of cyberpunk-set RPGs, in which the genuinely rational consequences of the game being played as described, will basically be that the PCs are rounded up and jailed for life, and/or "killed in a gun battle". That's just looking at the setting as presented, full of these hostile, vengeful groups, many of them with huge resources, and this digital world where, even if you're SINless, you're not actually that hard to track down. There's also the weird lack of rational consequence in the opposite direction, again common in cyberpunk RPGs - the PC are ludicrously underpaid for risk they're taking. Like by a factor of 10 or more typically, sometimes even by a factor of 100 or more. It doesn't make sense, rationally, within the setting that you could be paid that little. Sorry, I'm not here to "explain why we stole the cars" (the Shadowrun classic), but it is why! If you steal cars, the consequences are logical/rational. You get pennies on the dollar but the risk is controlled and limited and known and there probably isn't a firefight - yet even at pennies on the NuYen I should say, you're getting a reasonable amount.

So I guess my point with rational consequences is that they need to cut both ways, that PCs not getting what's coming to them, good or bad, undermines an RPG, rather severely. Don't write a setting as harsh and dangerous and Shadowrun and then design adventures/scenarios and describe the mode of play as if it's very much safer and less fatal! Don't expect PCs to risk death for less money than gets them to next week when that's clearly not how the world works.

And looking at '90s RPGs, it's wildly inconsistent - RPGs that are pulp as hell might do a reasonable job with rational consequences, but ones that are extremely elaborate and realist often fail miserably by the same token.

This is so obviously true that I'm disappointed you needed to say it. (And it needed to be said!) There are a lot of investigative scenarios for various games out there that explain in full to the GM what's going on, but so much of it is going to remain hidden to the players that I can't help but think, "What's the point?"
Whilst I definitely agree, there can be a point in a couple of ways, to secrets not necessarily revealed (imho of course!):

1) They can inform the rational consequences. I think this can be pretty important. In the real world, you rarely know everything, you rarely find out everything, and sometimes you just don't care, but for the consequences to seem rational, sometimes you need behind the scenes stuff going on, that the PCs don't necessarily delve into (or not in detail). I feel like, if the PCs always know absolutely everything about why what happened, happened, that's great for a murder mystery, but it's not so great for, well most other settings.

Of course you can always use film-like scenes to show undiscovered secrets if that makes sense in your game/RPG/scenario. I've done it before. Not often but it made an impact in a mystery/horror sort of game a while back.

2) Sometimes that stuff is there for the players if they want to dig into it. So it is wasted in the same sense that a dungeon with 20 rooms, where the players only visit 15 has wasted stuff.

3) You talk about levers earlier - and I think in the games I've been running lately, the largest "category" of "undiscovered secrets" is stuff I put there to act as levers. Like, the PCs might never find out X NPC was in love with Y NPC, because they just shot Y NPC in the face (to my surprise!), but that was in there to act as a lever, to make the NPCs and situation imperfect enough that it can be manipulated. Need that rough surface texture!

Generally this means there isn't going to be a whole lot that's not ever revealed though. I do know the kind of scenario you describe, often one where the PCs are essentially "lead by the nose" by NPCs/documents/etc. through the adventure, and never quite know what's going on, nor really could even if they cared to! That's not a great way to design things!

EDIT:

The TLDR is make the world and people in it imperfect and flawed, that'll give you the levers, and it'll help with the rational consequences - @Umbran is I believe implying this when talking about how NPCs succeed/fail just like PCs. Avoid the hypercompetent.

Also when it comes to rational consequences, make sure the setting and the scenarios match up. @Campbell points out how shocking twists rarely fit with good gameplay, and the same applies to setting and scenario design in other ways. The reason people always moan about pay in Shadowrun and similar games is that, intuitively, it's obviously nonsensical and unexpected that you'd be paid so little. That's an easy and tired example I admit but I think it helps make it obvious. Things should make sense, most of the time at least.
 
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MGibster

Legend
Sorry I'm not hear to "explain why we stole the cars" (the Shadowrun classic), but it is why. If you steal cars, the consequences are logical/rational. You get pennies on the dollar but the risk is controlled and limited and known and there probably isn't a firefight - yet even at pennies on the NuYen I should say, you're getting a reasonable amount.
Cyberpunk Red is very guilty of this. It makes more sense to form a gang of car thieves because it's less risky and more lucrative than being an edge runner. Property crimes are not investigated by the Night City police department and as the rules are written you pretty much get full value for all property when sold. Stealing a few economy class cars a week is going to net a small group a fairly comfortable lifestyle with little chance of getting caught let alone going to prison.

Whilst I definitely agree, there can be a point in a couple of ways, to secrets not necessarily revealed (imho of course!):
Oh, sure, it often times makes sense to keep something secret until there's a need to let the cat out of the bag. For example, defeating what you think is the big bad evil guy only to find out he's actually working for another even bigger badder evil guy.

Sometimes that stuff is there for the players if they want to dig into it. So it is wasted in the same sense that a dungeon with 20 rooms, where the players only visit 15 has wasted stuff.

Sometimes it is, in Call of Cthulhu's famous scenario The Haunting, there's all sorts of information they might miss out on should they neglect to do any research on the Corbitt house at the library, city hall, or just by asking people in the neighborhood about it. But I'm specifically referring to scenarios where the author gives the GM a ton of backstory and there's no obvious way to introduce it to the player while they're actually playing the game.
 

pemerton

Legend
@Ruin Explorer , @Campbell, @hawkeyefan

A question that is prompted by some of these interesting recent posts:

To create a backstory/situation that would be good for a session or two of play - let's say 6+, but fewer than 10, hours of the players declaring actions for their PCs, receiving narration from the GM, making some decisions among themselves both in and out of character, etc - how many pages of prep do you think is required?

And can we break this down a bit. Eg how many NPCs, how many "levers" per NPC, how many groups, how many places etc?

It's a long time since I've tried to prep for the sort of RPGing we're talking about in this thread, and I probably wasn't doing a very good job. So I'll have a stab, but I don't promise that it'll be right!

NPCs: I'm thinking double-digits is good, but fewer than 20. That's enough for half-a-dozen or so scenes (which seems like 2+ hours of play, depending how they go), allows for NPCs on their own or with friends, and allows for some NPCs who get mentioned or alluded to but don't actually turn up in play.

Groups/factions: Building on my thoughts about number of NPCs, I'm going to say 3 to 5. Three creates the possibility of opposition plus one observer/exploiter if the opponents come into conflict. More than 5 seems like it might be too much for the GM and players to handle, and the interactions and consequences could get out of hand.

"Levers": It seems like some NPCs should have only one, that's easy to discover and exploit. These give players straightforward ways in. Some others maybe need more subtlety - say, a personal life lever (love, debt, shameful past, etc), an "internal" professional lever (wanting promotion, embezzling the firm, dissatisfied with current leadership, etc), an "external" professional leader (wants to take down a rival, used to be best friends with a rival, plays poker every Thursday night with a rival, etc), immediate/contextual lever (broken down car, stuck in a hotel with credit cards lost, really need to get a message from A to B, etc), perhaps more, whether duplicates within a category or some further category of lever I haven't thought of.

If that averages to two levers per NPC, we're talking maybe 20+ levers. How these should relate to the groups/factions seems pretty contextual. There can be direct relationships - eg leader of group A used to love deputy of group B but now hates him; or contextual - eg there's only one car and so group A can use it to carry their message or group B can use it for their getaway but they probably can't both use it (at least, not easily). But probably at least 3 or 4 such interconnections seems good, as that gives the players multiple pathways to interaction. If there are 20+ levers, maybe keep at least half of them more simple, than interactive between groups? So that the players have some ways in that don't immediately destabilise the situation in ways they mightn't be able to predict, especially early in the scenario.

Places: Each NPC probably needs at least a typical place they can be found, and some will need multiple places (eg work, home). Some NPCs will overlap, but others won't. Some places may also be connected to levers but don't have relevant NPCs in them. I can see a real risk of this growing out of control if the system doesn't help the GM rein it in, particularly by putting a real limit on the amount of detail needed in order to frame scenes and resolve actions in a place.

Pages: With double-digit NPCs, 20+ levers, 3+ groups and all those places, I'm seeing 10+ pages of notes to make this scenario work.


Anyway, that's my first attempt at thinking this through. I was helped by having recently used the Torchbearer adventure design sequence to design a Torchbearer "dungeon": it makes the GM ask some very practical questions about the design. In the above I've tried to be similar in terms of thinking through the practicalities of setting up a scenario like this.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
As a player, if I don't know and am unlikely to learn what's really going on, then who cares? If that man robbing the bank was actually mind controlled by space slugs but I never find out, then it may as well not be part of the setting at all.

Exactly!
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
A question that is prompted by some of these interesting recent posts:

To create a backstory/situation that would be good for a session or two of play - let's say 6+, but fewer than 10, hours of the players declaring actions for their PCs, receiving narration from the GM, making some decisions among themselves both in and out of character, etc - how many pages of prep do you think is required?

And can we break this down a bit. Eg how many NPCs, how many "levers" per NPC, how many groups, how many places etc?

It's a long time since I've tried to prep for the sort of RPGing we're talking about in this thread, and I probably wasn't doing a very good job. So I'll have a stab, but I don't promise that it'll be right!

For my recent Spire campaign, I largely used one sheet of prep: a mind-map that showed the relationships between factions and NPCs in the district of the city in which play was to take place. I mean, I jotted down some ideas and used material from the book and from one supplement, but I ultimately put it all into the mind-map and that’s what I referenced during play. I’d take notes and make updates to it by hand during the sessions.

The game was intended to go longer than two sessions, so I think there were more Factions to start with than you suggest, probably closer to 10. NPCs were probably at about 20 or so to start, but obviously increased as soon as play started. Not all were involved from the start, but were introduced as needed.

I’ll have to take a look at my notes and the books and see if I can provide some more specific examples.
 

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