D&D (2024) 5e spell saves versus 4e spell attacks

[Lojaan]

100% agree. Saving throws must go. They are a weird and unnecessary mechanic. Just "attack" the save value. More fun and makes more sense.

 

[Aldarc]

I understand where you're coming from, but as a DM, I like to roll dice too.

I prefer 4e style defenses. I find that it's easier, quicker, and more intuitive for new players. However, unlike what Yaarel is proposing, the GM in 4e also rolled dice because "monsters" were rolling their attacks and spells against the PCs' defenses as well. It was like rolling against the PCs' AC, but also for Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. IMHO, this was one of 4e's better innovations that were unnecesarily thrown out for 5e by "virtue" of guilt by association with 4e.

 

[Lojaan]

I prefer 4e style defenses. I find that it's easier, quicker, and more intuitive for new players. However, unlike what Yaarel is proposing, the GM in 4e also rolled dice because "monsters" were rolling their attacks and spells against the PCs' defenses as well. It was like rolling against the PCs' AC, but also for Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. IMHO, this was one of 4e's better innovations that were unnecesarily thrown out for 5e by "virtue" of guilt by association with 4e.

100% agree.

Plus as a DM when you succeed at a spell save it's usually a downer for the whole table. More fun for everyone if the player gets to roll dice to hit my monster defences

 

[Aldarc]

100% agree.

Plus as a DM when you succeed at a spell save it's usually a downer for the whole table. More fun for everyone if the player gets to roll dice to hit my monster defences

Yeah, what makes it quicker is that the only person who rolls is the caster, whether that is a PC or GM NPC. That speeds up play considerably.

 

[Horwath]

Fort defense: 8+str+con
Red defense: 8+dex+int
will defense: 8+wis+cha

every class gets proficiency bonus to one defense score:
resilient half feat gives one more if taken.
some classes(sub-classes) get prof bonus to one defense at some later level.

 

[Yaarel]

Ideally I want eight abilities:

• Strength-Constitution
• Dexterity-Athletics
• Intelligence-Perception
• Charisma-Wisdom

It might even be possible to treat Athletics and Perception as abilities, while being backward compatible. The only difference would be, 5.0 uses Wisdom and adds Perception as a skill, while 5.5 uses Perception and adds various skills including Investigation.

With these eight, there are only FOUR saving throws:

• Constitution ( ≈ Fortitude)
• Athletics ( ≈ Reflex)
• Perception ( ≈ Perception as a saving throw versus unseen, disguise, illusion, etcetera)
• Wisdom ( ≈ Willpower)



Maybe the four saving throws can even be 4e style, in the sense that one thee highest of either Strength or Constitution for Fortitude, the highest of either Dexterity or Athletics for Reflex, etcetera.

 

[Aldarc]

Ideally I want eight abilities:

• Strength-Constitution
• Dexterity-Athletics
• Intelligence-Perception
• Charisma-Wisdom

It might even be possible to treat Athletics and Perception as abilities, while being backward compatible. The only difference would be, 5.0 uses Wisdom and adds Perception as a skill, while 5.5 uses Perception and adds various skills including Investigation.

With these eight, there are only FOUR saving throws:

• Constitution ( ≈ Fortitude)
• Athletics ( ≈ Reflex)
• Perception ( ≈ Perception as a saving throw versus unseen, disguise, illusion, etcetera)
• Wisdom ( ≈ Willpower)



Maybe the four saving throws can even be 4e style, in the sense that one thee highest of either Strength or Constitution for Fortitude, the highest of either Dexterity or Athletics for Reflex, etcetera.

The Six Attributes are not going away from D&D. If we want to play a game that uses a similar attribute setup as what you propose, then it would be FAR EASIER to play another game entirely: e.g., Ryuutama, Shadow of the Demon Lord, etc.

 

[Yaarel]

The Six Attributes are not going away from D&D. If we want to play a game that uses a similar attribute setup as what you propose, then it would be FAR EASIER to play another game entirely: e.g., Ryuutama, Shadow of the Demon Lord, etc.

I think a 5.5 DM can offer eight abilities as a variant, while also ensuring that the core formatting makes it easy to implement.

Making Perception an ability is straightforward: Wisdom+Perception ≈ Perception+Investigation.

Meanwhile, when a character tries to find something hidden: Perception+Stealth.

When the character tries to identify animal tracks: Perception+Survival.

And so on

 

[Aldarc]

I think a 5.5 DM can offer eight abilities as a variant, while also ensuring that the core formatting makes it easy to implement.

It's a pipe dream. Move on to games where you don't have to fight the system or its culture to sculpt your fantasy heartbreaker.

 

[Yaarel]

It's a pipe dream. Move on to games where you don't have to fight the system or its culture to sculpt your fantasy heartbreaker.

Ultimately the benefit for D&D is, these eight abilities are roughly equal to each other in power and usefulness.

To balance the abilities is something many D&D players want.