Torchbearer 2e - actual play of this AWESOME system! (+)

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Mouse Guard is nothing but consequential decision-making by players with consequential fallout and a very rich, action-adventure play experience when GMed and played with sufficient thematic aggression and skill.

I’m curious where your reading of the system is lending toward your interpretation of “not much in-game decision-making.”

Torchbearer is MG’s engine with a whole lot more levers and gears and complexity and intensity. In terms of the BW family of games, MG is lowest in terms of levers/gears/complexity/intensity, but it’s absolutely a fantastic game.

If you’d like, maybe point out some passages in MG that you’re thinking about and I’ll see if I can’t clear up how that stuff works in play?

Oh, that sounds hopeful. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how it works.

The impression I get is that Missions are comprised of obstacles that have specific rolls associated with them. Maybe the player gets to choose, in some cases, which dice pool they want to use (e.g. Nature in place of a skill) or opportunities to use traits or other factors to modify the dice pool, but the expectation seems to be that they will face obstacles with predefined solutions.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the "No Weasels" passage. I'm with @iserith in that I think players should try to find creative solutions to problems that allow them to avoid the RNG of dice rolling completely, but it sounds like Mouse Guard explicitly frowns on that.

So what I'm envisioning is, for example, coming to a flooded stream that must be crossed with some sort of skill test. Deciding to not cross the stream, or taking extra time to go to find a bridge, isn't an option. There will be a dice roll. The only decision is which, among the applicable skills you have, is the one that gives you either the best chance to succeed (or maybe even the best chance to fail so you can earn a new point.)

Am I envisioning the wrong thing?

I will add that one thing I wasn't considering with my previous post is that the game specifically does call for players to be put into situations where their Belief, Goal, and Instinct come into conflict, forcing them to choose which one prevails. Or to simply choose between a BIG and what might be a wiser decision. That definitely qualifies as in-game decision-making, and I like it.
 

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Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
I've never read or played Mouse Guard. But given its proximity to Burning Wheel and Torchbearer, I wouldn't expect it to very boardgame-y. BW is the most intense RPG I've ever played. TB is more light-hearted, but is full of player-side decision-making.
I guess the question I have is what sorts of decisions, and how constrained are the choices, and how is it resolved.

My impression from the MG rules is that it might be a lot of binary choices, e.g. Fight or Run Away, as predetermined by the GM. And while the execution of that choice might involve cool roleplaying (BIGs, circles, mentor/ally/rival, traits, etc) the player isn’t really supposed to start suggesting options other than the ones presented.

And then, when a choice is made, it is resolved through strict execution of the rules, not GM adjudication.

Again, I may just be reading it wrong. I want to like this game, I really do. And I want to try Torchbearer now.
 

pemerton

Legend
I guess the question I have is what sorts of decisions, and how constrained are the choices, and how is it resolved.
I'm guessing that MG is broadly similar to BW and TB, given the authorship and the system.

So the choices might be: who to make friends with and who to oppose; who takes what sort of risk; who makes a big sacrifice at the climax; if there are goals in the system, there are probably choices about which goals to pursue and how to pursue them.

My impression from the MG rules is that it might be a lot of binary choices, e.g. Fight or Run Away, as predetermined by the GM. And while the execution of that choice might involve cool roleplaying (BIGs, circles, mentor/ally/rival, traits, etc) the player isn’t really supposed to start suggesting options other than the ones presented.
Again, with the caveat that I'm conjecturing based on knowledge of other games in the same family, I suspect the following:

* That players are expected to choose how to confront obstacles (minor example: in the TB actual play in the OP, the players chose to search the door out of the sarcophagus room and found it's hidden keyhole, rather than choosing to force it open with brute strength; bigger example: in the first session of the same TB campaign, the PCs chose to fight some bandits rather than cow them, or befriend them);

* Failure can result in twists, which should follow from both (i) the fiction and (ii) the players' intents for their (failed) action resolution; and this player-responsive "fail forward" will play a big role in shaping overall events.

when a choice is made, it is resolved through strict execution of the rules, not GM adjudication.
Doesn't the player decide what happens on a success ("intent and task") and the GM decide what happens on a failure (in TB, that's success with a condition, or a twist; in BW, the contrast between those two isn't as marked; I don't know how MG handles this).

I want to like this game, I really do. And I want to try Torchbearer now.
I think if you read my TB and BW actual plays, they might help.

Also, my mantra for these systems - I don't know if it will help you - is that there is no risk of railroading, because the players' ability to shape the agenda (through successes locked in by intent + task; pluse choice of Belief, Goal, etc; plus Circles and similar abilities - though I don't know for sure if MG has these) will take care of that. The risk is that the GM is boring in the situations they present, especially their twists/failure narrations. Prepping some ideas can help here, but I also rely on leaning heavily into tropes/themes that I know I and the players are all enthusiastic about; and if in doubt just run with the players' ideas. You can always set an obstacle and call on them to test!
 

I've never read or played Mouse Guard. But given its proximity to Burning Wheel and Torchbearer, I wouldn't expect it to very boardgame-y.

I don't own MG but my memory is that it was a proto-Torchbearer. It has the structure of TB of discrete phases - a campaigny-adventure phase and a back in safety phase and (iirc) a freeform-do-your-own-stuff phase - and it features the angry, thirsty, etc conditions as penalties which the mice accumulate.
 

A bit pressed for time, so I'm going to give you the abridged version of things. One thing here is that what you're talking about above that you like is a wargaming aesthetic of (1) suss out the GM’s conception of the situation in the imagined space > (2) figure out how best to game that mental model by putting together a gambit with an attenuated risk profile and/or one making a proposition that the GM will agree with sans rolling dice. That is certainly one aesthetic of play, but it is definitely not the sort of play that Mouse Guard (and kindred games) design for. Mouse Guard is designed for big, bold moves by the members of the guard. The have to prove their mettle to themselves, to their superiors, and to everyone in the Territories. The game engine requires failure to power character advancement and one of the most important currencies (Checks) use for doing all the stuff on The Player's Turn (down time in a safe haven) is gained by using your Traits against you...and you also have to be ware of your Nature advancing too high so there is a balance of keeping it in check also. This game is about big, bold moves, overcoming obstacles, failing and finding out who your Mouse is, changing and evolving, and carrying on or succumbing to the hardships of life as a member of the Guard (or retiring).

This is not a "minimize risk profile" sort of game or a "try not to roll dice" kind of game. This is also not a "no PvP" game. This game encourages it (and its easy to resolve), but not "to the death" kind of stuff (arguments, scraps, stuff like that)! Its a game about making big moves, overcoming obstacles and setbacks, and doing a whole lot of heroing in service to your Mouse Guard duties and the good folk of the Territories. In the course of that your PC will evolve and we'll find out who they are.

Missions - These are Adventures in D&D or Torchbearer parlance or Scores in Blades in the Dark parlance. There are 10 Mission Archetypes like there are 6 Blades' Score archetypes. Missions consist of 3-4 situations related to Weather, Wilderness, Animals, Mice (typically pick two per mission and use reserves for Twists) + putting one or more of the PC's thematic flags (Goals, Beliefs, Instincts, Relations etc) in the crosshairs. The GM frames the situation > there is a back and forth to firm it up as needed > GM and players suggest actions to resolve things and once set a Test is settled upon > Obstacle is set via the rules (this is the "Don't Be a Weasel" part...once the Obstacle is factored up, the dice are going to be rolled....take a look at that first paragraph for incentive to make tests) > dice pool is martialed from the multifaceted means of the Mouse Guard > Test is made > result is success and situation resolved (move to next situation) or Condition and situation is resolved (moved to next situation) or Twist where something compelling happens to escalate the present situation or change things adversely to test the Guard (Twists should virtually always be about thematic PC flags like putting two PC Beliefs in conflict so maybe they'll fight!...or making a PC prioritize either their Relation or the welfare of the settlement/the Guard's duties etc).

After the initial Mission is resolved (which is handed down straight from the Matriarch to springboard play), play goes from GM's Turn to Player's Turn. They'll be at a safe haven somewhere when their turn begins. The next mission will evolve organically from some stuff that happened in the last Mission or stuff that happened during player Tests (Checks are cashed in to make Tests to do all kinds of things from recover conditions/gear to attain gear/supplies/aid to call upon allies to investigate stuff to mediate squabbles or get married or find/make friends to carry out little mini-adventures and all kinds of stuff), typically from a resultant Twist (and typically if the session ends on that Twist).

At end of session we go over things together and assign Fate and Persona (currency to do stuff) based on that session's interactions with Beliefs, Goals, Instincts, MVP, Workhorse, Embodiment.

The game carries on like this through the seasons. We get to Winter and its a special season where we do Rest & Recover, Age, Practice, Reflection, Promotion, Retirement, Memorials. After that is Unfinished Business which is a long bit of free play where players dictate the content of play like an extended Player's Turn but without the cost of Checks for Tests but there are two catches; they can't recover conditions and whatever they want to accomplish must be in Lockhaven (so no patrols/journeys to other settlements). We play through a bunch of tests/conflicts of the players desiring, focusing on stuff that they're interested in that didn't get the full focus or perhaps tightness of focus that they were looking for.

After that its another end of session like above (Beliefs, Instincts, MVP, Workhorse, Embodiment).




Anyone who has played/run Torchbearer will recognize this stuff (only reskinned). Mouse Guard is a stripped down Torchbearer with a different focus and theme. There isn't delving. There isn't the brutal focus on inventory/gear/attrition/light. Its Patrols and Mail Delivery and Trailblazing and Hunting Predators and Pathfinding and Dispute Mediating and all the other kinds of stuff Rangery/Knight-types would do.

But to get back to your initial post:

* This isn't a wargaming aesthetic where you're trying to suss out the GM's mental model of situation/imagined space in order to reduce risk profile to 0 or get out of rolling dice (you want to roll dice in this game).

* GM doesn't dictate the approach to obstacles (though they absolutely will make suggestions and heavily foreground conflict and telegraph dangers/opportunities). Players have all the typical say in making Tests to resolve obstacles on the GM's Turn (or maybe getting some PvP action in if they have a dispute over how to proceed and someone needs to be convinced or socked in the mouth!).

* Obstacles are factored via a codified game engine. This isn't like 5e D&D where the GM just sets a DC at their discretion/conception of the imagined space. You describe a situation and there will be a base number for a test and if other stuff applies, it goes up by that Factor until an Obstacle Factor is reached. Versus Tests are just like they sound. One dice pool for a player is martialed against an NPC (or another player) dice pool and they're compared.

* Yes, once an Obstacle rating is factored up, players don't get to back down their PCs from the test. Roll the dice and suck up the success or consequences (again, failure is awesome and necessary for advancement in this game)!




LOL at my "abridged version of things."
 
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Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
A bit pressed for time, so I'm going to give you the abridged version of things. One thing here is that what you're talking about above that you like is a wargaming aesthetic of (1) suss out the GM’s conception of the situation in the imagined space > (2) figure out how best to game that mental model by putting together a gambit with an attenuated risk profile and/or one making a proposition that the GM will agree with sans rolling dice.

So...I appreciate you taking the time, and I'm going to read the rest of your generously long post, but that cynical & disparaging characterization of a play style you obviously don't like is not an encouraging start.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
A bit pressed for time, so I'm going to give you the abridged version of things. One thing here is that what you're talking about above that you like is a wargaming aesthetic of (1) suss out the GM’s conception of the situation in the imagined space > (2) figure out how best to game that mental model by putting together a gambit with an attenuated risk profile and/or one making a proposition that the GM will agree with sans rolling dice. That is certainly one aesthetic of play, but it is definitely not the sort of play that Mouse Guard (and kindred games) design for. Mouse Guard is designed for big, bold moves by the members of the guard. The have to prove their mettle to themselves, to their superiors, and to everyone in the Territories. The game engine requires failure to power character advancement and one of the most important currencies (Checks) use for doing all the stuff on The Player's Turn (down time in a safe haven) is gained by using your Traits against you...and you also have to be ware of your Nature advancing too high so there is a balance of keeping it in check also. This game is about big, bold moves, overcoming obstacles, failing and finding out who your Mouse is, changing and evolving, and carrying on or succumbing to the hardships of life as a member of the Guard (or retiring).

This is not a "minimize risk profile" sort of game or a "try not to roll dice" kind of game. This is also not a "no PvP" game. This game encourages it (and its easy to resolve), but not "to the death" kind of stuff (arguments, scraps, stuff like that)! Its a game about making big moves, overcoming obstacles and setbacks, and doing a whole lot of heroing in service to your Mouse Guard duties and the good folk of the Territories. In the course of that your PC will evolve and we'll find out who they are.

Missions - These are Adventures in D&D or Torchbearer parlance or Scores in Blades in the Dark parlance. There are 10 Mission Archetypes like there are 6 Blades' Score archetypes. Missions consist of 3-4 situations related to Weather, Wilderness, Animals, Mice (typically pick two per mission and use reserves for Twists) + putting one or more of the PC's thematic flags (Goals, Beliefs, Instincts, Relations etc) in the crosshairs. The GM frames the situation > there is a back and forth to firm it up as needed > GM and players suggest actions to resolve things and once set a Test is settled upon > Obstacle is set via the rules (this is the "Don't Be a Weasel" part...once the Obstacle is factored up, the dice are going to be rolled....take a look at that first paragraph for incentive to make tests) > dice pool is martialed from the multifaceted means of the Mouse Guard > Test is made > result is success and situation resolved (move to next situation) or Condition and situation is resolved (moved to next situation) or Twist where something compelling happens to escalate the present situation or change things adversely to test the Guard (Twists should virtually always be about thematic PC flags like putting two PC Beliefs in conflict so maybe they'll fight!...or making a PC prioritize either their Relation or the welfare of the settlement/the Guard's duties etc).

After the initial Mission is resolved (which is handed down straight from the Matriarch to springboard play), play goes from GM's Turn to Player's Turn. They'll be at a safe haven somewhere when their turn begins. The next mission will evolve organically from some stuff that happened in the last Mission or stuff that happened during player Tests (Checks are cashed in to make Tests to do all kinds of things from recover conditions/gear to attain gear/supplies/aid to call upon allies to investigate stuff to mediate squabbles or get married or find/make friends to carry out little mini-adventures and all kinds of stuff), typically from a resultant Twist (and typically if the session ends on that Twist).

At end of session we go over things together and assign Fate and Persona (currency to do stuff) based on that session's interactions with Beliefs, Goals, Instincts, MVP, Workhorse, Embodiment.

The game carries on like this through the seasons. We get to Winter and its a special season where we do Rest & Recover, Age, Practice, Reflection, Promotion, Retirement, Memorials. After that is Unfinished Business which is a long bit of free play where players dictate the content of play like an extended Player's Turn but without the cost of Checks for Tests but there are two catches; they can't recover conditions and whatever they want to accomplish must be in Lockhaven (so no patrols/journeys to other settlements). We play through a bunch of tests/conflicts of the players desiring, focusing on stuff that they're interested in that didn't get the full focus or perhaps tightness of focus that they were looking for.

After that its another end of session like above (Beliefs, Instincts, MVP, Workhorse, Embodiment).




Anyone who has played/run Torchbearer will recognize this stuff (only reskinned). Mouse Guard is a stripped down Torchbearer with a different focus and theme. There isn't delving. There isn't the brutal focus on inventory/gear/attrition/light. Its Patrols and Mail Delivery and Trailblazing and Hunting Predators and Pathfinding and Dispute Mediating and all the other kinds of stuff Rangery/Knight-types would do.

But to get back to your initial post:

* This isn't a wargaming aesthetic where you're trying to suss out the GM's mental model of situation/imagined space in order to reduce risk profile to 0 or get out of rolling dice (you want to roll dice in this game).

* GM doesn't dictate the approach to obstacles (though they absolutely will make suggestions and heavily foreground conflict and telegraph dangers/opportunities). Players have all the typical say in making Tests to resolve obstacles on the GM's Turn (or maybe getting some PvP action in if they have a dispute over how to proceed and someone needs to be convinced or socked in the mouth!).

* Obstacles are factored via a codified game engine. This isn't like 5e D&D where the GM just sets a DC at their discretion/conception of the imagined space. You describe a situation and there will be a base number for a test and if other stuff applies, it goes up by that Factor until an Obstacle Factor is reached. Versus Tests are just like they sound. One dice pool for a player is martialed against an NPC (or another player) dice pool and they're compared.

* Yes, once an Obstacle rating is factored up, players don't get to back down their PCs from the test. Roll the dice and suck up the success or consequences (again, failure is awesome and necessary for advancement in this game)!




LOL at my "abridged version of things."

Ok, you mentioned "big, bold moves" twice, and "big moves" once, but I'm not sure what you mean. Can you give an example scenario, and how in that scenario a "big, bold move" in Mouse Guard would be different from what somebody might do in a more traditional RPG?

(Most of the rules and phases you mention I understand from reading the book. I'm just having trouble getting my head around how it feels in play.)
 

So...I appreciate you taking the time, and I'm going to read the rest of your generously long post, but that cynical & disparaging characterization of a play style you obviously don't like is not an encouraging start.

Its neither cynical nor disparaging.

And I do like it. Very much. I've spent the overwhelming % of my gaming life running that game exactly. Like isn't a strong enough word. Love is more like it.

When I describe it to prospective players when I run an RC hexcrawl or B/X, that is how I describe it because that is 100 % what it is. I might use simpler language if they aren't war gamers or gamers generally, but that is 100 % what I'll say:

"I've got a map filled with obstacles that make up an imagined space. Figure out my stuff (which means "figure out my conception of the imagined space that I've created") and beat it (which means "beat me, the GM, by gaming my mental model through shrewd, skillful gambits and resource management") as efficiently and while assuming as minimal risk as possible."

That is what I mean. I don't feel badly about it. Its the game part of those games I run.

I don't understand this place. Its impossible to say anything here without this happening. I've just spent a great deal of time, kindly breaking down a game to help you understand it...and you're telling me I'm not allowed to describe a game style that I've spent literally 10,000 + hours GMing in my own words?

Let me read that for you again. I've spent 10,000 + hours GMing B/X and RC Hexcrawls from 1984 to date. 10,000 + hours. 10,000 + hours. How many people do you think...in the entire world can say that? Yet you're telling me (a) its not correct and (b) I don't like it (something I've spent over 10,000 hours doing)? And that I don't get to describe it in the manner which I feel is the most information rich way?
 
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Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
...and you're telling me I'm not allowed to describe a game style

And that I don't get to describe it in the manner which I feel is the most information rich way?

Where did I tell you what you are, or are not, allowed to do/write/say?

"Game the mental model" sounds to me like the language used over in the 5e forums by people who dismiss the play style as "pixel b****ing" and "mother may I?" So, yeah, it sounds disparaging. Is it possible you view it as a lesser form of roleplaying (perhaps mere "wargaming") and that's what I'm reading into it?
 

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