D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
My only responses, since I am no longer interested in continuing this conversation, are firstly that you were in error when you leapt from "less-conscious" to "instinct is more effective than training." What you call "instinct," according to the reporting on the study (I can't access it any more than you can), can actually be trained. What is in error is not training, but our socially-constructed ideas of what things are "tells" and what aren't. Humans are in fact able to refine our skills at detecting deception, but in order to do so we must unlearn the bad and inaccurate lessons taught to us by society (e.g. that eye contact breaking alone is a tell) and instead apply a mix of effective analysis techniques (such as establishing a baseline for a given person before beginning to look at their responses that are in question) and actually using and refining intuition/"instinct."

Secondly, I can't say I'm surprised to see you completely dismiss the entire social sciences field out of hand simply because it isn't physics. As a physics guy myself, I find that academic chauvinism incredibly frustrating, counterproductive, and (oftentimes) hypocritical. Ever heard, for example, of the pentaquark issue, where physicists confidently reported that they'd discovered pentaquark matter, only to then find they were in error...which causes the entire subfield of pentaquark studies to become a pariah, with almost no one doing any research into it due to the stigma of one group having a replication failure? Or how about the Bogdanov affair, where two French physicists/mathematicians (or should I say "physicists"...) published a series of papers purporting to describe the physical theory of the pre-Big Bang universe, but their peer-reviewed and published papers were found to be stating actual nonsense and otherwise seriously flawed enough that even a casual analysis by physicists of other specific foci could see the absurdities right away, and the brothers' PhDs were found to have been built on similarly questionable grounds.

And, I just want to be clear, I say this as someone trained in and loving physics. Physics is what I want to dedicate my professional life to. But this "eww, social science...gross..." attitude is unhelpful at best and actively trying to reduce human knowledge at worst. Yes, there are problems, and yes, those problems are significant and need to be addressed. Treating that as a reason to dismiss an entire field is foolish. Keep in mind that the "common sense" theory of light from literally just a century and a half ago was almost totally wrong, despite being widely accepted by the physics community. The caloric fluid theory of heat held sway for ages despite having provable flaws. We knew Newton's laws were failing us long before Einstein gave us relativity, and even when he did, the suggestion that Newton might be wrong was scandalous for a time. Continental drift and meteor impact as an explanation for cratering were considered ridiculous for most of the 20th century, yet they are now such solid parts of geology and astrophysics that to question them would be practically unthinkable. Fields develop over time. Psychology, and other related social sciences, has only been even remotely a formal science for perhaps 150 years. What errors were common two thousand year ago when Aristotle began writing the Physics?

But yeah. I'm done. You're clearly not interested in using equitable standards of argument, so there's no point in further discussion.
Mod Note:

Disengaging from a discussion you wish to discontinue is a good option. But parthian shots while doing so raise the probability of creating hard feelings. Those tensions can resurface in other threads.

Next time, just…stop responding. Use your ignore list if you need to.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
The same thing that happens to people with Supernatural abilities in 3e/PF1e. Nothing.

Though I will go further and ask the question why antimagic zones need to exist anyways. Having your entire character lose all abilities and become a commoner because of some random happenstance doesn't sound all that great an idea to me.
Because narratively, its useful to have the occasional situation where the magic is turned off.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I don't know the question others were going for, but at least for me it's wondering what reasons your world itself has sntimagic zones large enough for a pc to spend hours or days in. I get the reason why you as a gm might want them with older editions but how are they fluffed?
In the 3pp setting Dark Matter, huge anti-magic zones exist as a by-product of magical nuclear weapons. Of course, that's a sci-fantasy setting, but the principal holds I think.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I don't know the question others were going for, but at least for me it's wondering what reasons your world itself has sntimagic zones large enough for a pc to spend hours or days in. I get the reason why you as a gm might want them with older editions but how are they fluffed?
I've never in my personal history of playing D&D seen an anti-magic zone large enough to spend even 1 hour in, let alone days. They're mostly just smallish(a very big one would be 100 yards in diameter) areas that can fit a room or part of a dungeon. Or the result of the spell or beholder.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Because narratively, its useful to have the occasional situation where the magic is turned off.
That's like saying we should have heavy gravity zones where it's impossible to wear armor or swing weapons because it's narratively useful to have the occasional situation where armed combat is turned off.

I don't mind areas of altered magic, like on other planes, diminished magic, or even wild magic (which can be fun for a little while), but telling a player "no, you can't do jack here" is ridiculous.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The Aikido 1000 sword strike technique takes about 20 minutes to finish. That's 1 attack every 1.2 seconds or 4 attacks in 4.8 seconds which is less than a round. Action Surge you could argue taps into the Ki and is supernatural.
Nods, believable, 20 minutes would take good stamina though. Yeh I do not find 4 per 6 seconds overly impressive and there are archers that can do full draw accurate attacks in 1.5 seconds and they are definitely highly skilled though not legendary and there is a snapshot technique that can bring it on faster. A legendary archer is doing a dozen shots before the first hits the target (Hiawatha?)
 

Can't speak much for other editions. My experience with 5e spellcasters has mostly been that the game play loop is much more resource management oriented than risk-reward oriented.

Feels more like algebra than adventuring to me. "Solve for y spell use when x number of z type monsters appear."

And it's not like the solution arises organically from the setting, where ley lines or mystical traditions or elemental forces or whatever combined to form the basis for wizardry or anything..it's just.."well it was on x spell list so I picked it"

Some kind of check to succeed, an actual penalty for failure, and some better guidance or practices for setting tie-in would be nice. Things like having certain elemental magics being stronger or easier to execute under certain conditions. Natural phenomena that interact with spellcasting components, etc.

Like, there's a bunch of natural circumstances that makes fighting easier or more difficult, why should magic be different?
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
That's like saying we should have heavy gravity zones where it's impossible to wear armor or swing weapons because it's narratively useful to have the occasional situation where armed combat is turned off.

I don't mind areas of altered magic, like on other planes, diminished magic, or even wild magic (which can be fun for a little while), but telling a player "no, you can't do jack here" is ridiculous.
I don't know. I'm of the opinion that PCs benefit from not having access to their strengths occasionally. I've been there as a player; its a good story if used sparingly.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Well then the question becomes.

What changed?

Why was it okay before but not okay now?
Umm... Did you NOT read the OP??? That was the entire point of the thread initially---welcome to the discussion. ;)

In Eastern myths you have tales of blind swordsmen who can fight better than those with sight, and warriors who can harden their bodies to iron-hard imperviousness. These things aren't seen as magical, but rather as the results of extreme training and skill (in other words, things that technically anyone could learn to do, assuming they could endure the training).
Sure, I've seen documentaries on the incredible things people can do via skill and training, but we have blind-fighting already and frankly those acts to channel ki and harden their bodies (like literally the spear tip would not go into the monks body!) required intense focus and psyching themselves up for it--not literally steel-skin.

The primary issue I have with items in D&D is that because magic items are normally DM-gated, martial players have little agency over what they get, unlike casters who can pick their spells. I'd be fine if the epic abilities of martials defaulted to items that they get as class features. I could easily ignore that fluff and tell my players that their fighter can simply be inherently awesome, if that's their preference.
That is a fault of 5E design. In 1E, spells were random (unless you had a very nice DM!) and you still had to roll to learn them--I had a few magic-users in those days who failed to learn fireball OR lightning bolt. :confused:
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Umm... Did you NOT read the OP??? That was the entire point of the thread initially---welcome to the discussion. ;)
I did. It says you don't know why.

So what did you do different.

Did you skip an edition?
Did you play multiple all caster parties?
Did your DMs run casters heavy on both NPCsand monster?
 

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