Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[GMforPowergamers]

Personally, I think a more germane way of looking at wizards in the context of Dragonlance is that people are rightly aware that they have powers that allow them to commit any range of potential crimes, from date-rape (charm person) to outright terrorism (delayed blast fireball), and so a governing body was necessarily established.

one that they let evil wizards be 1/3 of the choice makers...

When someone insists on developing weapons like that, and says "I don't want no gub'mint telling me what I can and can't do!" when told that they need proper licensing and accreditation, treating them like dangerous criminals is the appropriate response.

but the good guys shouldn'y be okay with evil people doing it...imagine if said government said "those potential crimes, from date-rape (charm person) to outright terrorism (delayed blast fireball) must be allowed by evil people too"

Likewise, the final aspect of acquiring a license is necessarily a training exercise with live ordinance. While prospective candidates are prepared and trained ahead of time, it's going to be inevitable that sometimes a mistake will be made, the ordinance will go off, and they'll die as a result. That's tragic, but the risk is inherent when working with such dangerous materials.

that is NOT what is happening... this isn't (as presented) a live fire drill with some occasional tragic deaths.... it's we take all your weapons you go in unarmed and somewhere between 20% and 60% of people die. BUT that's okay because the survivors are split good neutral and evil and we let them keep getting better at this... YES THE EVIL ONES TOO.

We kill good people who just want to help people, but let proven evil people keep there powers.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't hate dragonlance... I doubt many do, but if reimagining we would like some problematic things (even if accidental and long ago when no one knew better) to be fixed

The thing you and others have a problem with is at the core of the setting. It is the philosophy it was built around. Removing it makes playing Dragonlance pointless to me. Just add a bunch of dragons to your favorite setting if that's what you want.

 

[Micah Sweet]

What's kind of sad is gutting it will take it from a "Romantic Knight" (something like that) (or however it was originally described) setting where "evil always eats itself and good always wins" to: "It's the setting with the dragon war."

Exactly my point.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I don't think anyone is arguing that they don't have an excuse for what they're doing, just that the White Robes shouldn't be considered Good for participating because a lot of folks hold good to a higher standard then 'has a justification for murdering innocent people'.

White Robes don't make the rules of the Tower. And i can guarantee its not the White Robes who go out and kill a rogue mage who simply refused to take the test or stop practicing magic. They like every other mage in the Tower have to abide by its laws. Just like real world politicians and cops and judges (most of) and whatever may not agree with the law, they still uphold it (more or less).

 

[Vaalingrade]

that's the thing evil and neutral people can act that way it's good ones that make us go "wait what?"

It used to be that when a character is forced to do something 'pragmatic' for 'the greater good', it was seen as a tragedy; that they were sacrificing something good inside for a desired goal.

Nowadays though there's a push to frame doing terrible things for a good outcome is to be seen as heroic and a show of strength of character. "No you see he turned those orphans into a private army and got a bunch of them killed for a greater purpose. That means he's a good and heroic man to be emulated!"

 

[Micah Sweet]

one that they let evil wizards be 1/3 of the choice makers...

but the good guys shouldn'y be okay with evil people doing it...imagine if said government said "those potential crimes, from date-rape (charm person) to outright terrorism (delayed blast fireball) must be allowed by evil people too"

that is NOT what is happening... this isn't (as presented) a live fire drill with some occasional tragic deaths.... it's we take all your weapons you go in unarmed and somewhere between 20% and 60% of people die. BUT that's okay because the survivors are split good neutral and evil and we let them keep getting better at this... YES THE EVIL ONES TOO.

We kill good people who just want to help people, but let proven evil people keep there powers.

If you have a problem with how Dragonlance defines good and evil (totally understandable by the way), maybe the setting isn't for you.

 

[Alzrius]

one that they let evil wizards be 1/3 of the choice makers...

So you think it's in accordance with the ideals of Good to form a governing body that discriminates against others on the basis of alignment?

but the good guys shouldn'y be okay with evil people doing it...imagine if said government said "those potential crimes, from date-rape (charm person) to outright terrorism (delayed blast fireball) must be allowed by evil people too"

That strikes me as being an absolutist statement. If you hold that a fundamental principle of Good is "Evil must be destroyed, immediately, wherever it's encountered" then I think your definition is necessarily going to clash with other people's.

that is NOT what is happening... this isn't (as presented) a live fire drill with some occasional tragic deaths.... it's we take all your weapons you go in unarmed and somewhere between 20% and 60% of people die. BUT that's okay because the survivors are split good neutral and evil and we let them keep getting better at this... YES THE EVIL ONES TOO.

Can you cite your sources regarding those percentages? Likewise, I'm not sure what you mean with regard to "go in unarmed," since I was under the impression that mages take the Test with their spells prepared. I really can't understand what you're saying here.

We kill good people who just want to help people, but let proven evil people keep there powers.

It's worth noting that various wizards can and do oppose each other; they simply don't do so as an organizational principle, since otherwise there is no organization.

 

[Vaalingrade]

White Robes don't make the rules of the Tower. And i can guarantee its not the White Robes who go out and kill a rogue mage who simply refused to take the test or stop practicing magic. They like every other mage in the Tower have to abide by its laws. Just like real world politicians and cops and judges (most of) and whatever may not agree with the law, they still uphold it (more or less).

IF real world politicians, police and judges don't still advocate to fix the laws they don't agree with they're still complicit and the white Robes still aren't good because they're complicit in the system of killing innocents.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So you think it's in accordance with the ideals of Good to form a governing body that discriminates against others on the basis of alignment?

That strikes me as being an absolutist statement. If you hold that a fundamental principle of Good is "Evil must be destroyed, immediately, wherever it's encountered" then I think your definition is necessarily going to clash with other people's.

Can you cite your sources regarding those percentages? Likewise, I'm not sure what you mean with regard to "go in unarmed," since I was under the impression that mages take the Test with their spells prepared. I really can't understand what you're saying here.

It's worth noting that various wizards can and do oppose each other; they simply don't do so as an organizational principle, since otherwise there is no organization.

This. Being a wizard in DL is more important than being a good or evil wizard. The magic comes first.

 

[DarkCrisis]

IF real world politicians, police and judges don't still advocate to fix the laws they don't agree with they're still complicit and the white Robes still aren't good because they're complicit in the system of killing innocents.

Who says they dont try to change the laws of the tower? Point being they still have the abide by the laws as they are currently set. I dont agree with a lot of real world laws but that doesnt mean im going to go set a building on fire. Im sure a lot of RL people arent going to quit their jobs (especially if that job has been life for decades) or move to another country because the state they live in has the death penalty.