D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Zubatcarteira]

In 5e you can grapple a Rhino in place with one hand, so it's pretty much magic already tbh.

 

[Gammadoodler]

To be Fair this is not a thread about magic or mages alone but WHY people are asking for less magic... so in and of itself part of the topic

And also prior to this was a discussion regarding ways to redesign magic. We're making the rounds.

 

[Gammadoodler]

More hyperbole.

I don’t see anybody calling shove or dodge or grapple “magic”.

I’ve seen (including from me) that spending per rest resources on martial maneuvers is a spell-like mechanic, and therefore not meaningfully differentiated from spellcasting from a gameplay perspective.

And I’ve seen that fantastic, not-realistic-in-this-world* abilities must in some way be magic, whether that means supernatural or divine or psionic or whatever.

But that anything other than basic attack is magic? No. Unless you can provide a link.

*I can’t believe I have to specify what I mean by realistic.

Sure, it's fair to paint this as an exaggeration. Though, as @Zubatcarteira provided an example of in their post, the things that can be accomplished with many of even the most mundane martial maneuvers can significantly exceed what is realistic-in-this-world.

If everything that is not-realistic-in-this world must be explained by some kind of magic (which you've said you have seen), then, yes, these extraordinary grapples and shoves  must need similar explanation, no?

So, yes, it's hyperbole in its use of absolutes, but it's not an altogether unfair characterization of the spirit of some of this conversation.

 

[Lanefan]

Hot take warning.....

that's the thing, D&D allows me to be hit by 3 arrows, get breathed on by a dragon (taking full damage) and fall 30ft landing on my back... and if I have 7hp left I have no penalties to attack or skills. I am as good then as I am after a month of rest at everything I do.

Indeed; and that's a significant problem now and, to a slightly lesser extent, always has been.

Thing is, any means of solving it that's the least bit penalizing to characters who are running low on h.p. will immediately draw widespread howls of protest in which the words "death spiral" will figure prominently.

And yet, a death spiral is - or should be - the whole damn point! The more hurt or fatigued you are, the less effective you are. Don't want to get into a potential death spiral? Then don't lose the hit points in the first place.

Far too often it seems the only hit point anyone cares about is the one that takes them from +1 to 0. Ideally, every hit point should have importance, even the one that takes you from full to one less than full.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Sounds like a great excuse for refusing to actually solve a problem that's been a problem for over a decade, minus the brief respite during 4e.

Only been a problem for a small enough segment of players that's not large enough to make WotC think they have to solve it. Maybe once enough players finally agree it's a problem WotC will decide to "fix" it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Hot take warning.....

Indeed; and that's a significant problem now and, to a slightly lesser extent, always has been.

Thing is, any means of solving it that's the least bit penalizing to characters who are running low on h.p. will immediately draw widespread howls of protest in which the words "death spiral" will figure prominently.

And yet, a death spiral is - or should be - the whole damn point! The more hurt or fatigued you are, the less effective you are. Don't want to get into a potential death spiral? Then don't lose the hit points in the first place.

Far too often it seems the only hit point anyone cares about is the one that takes them from +1 to 0. Ideally, every hit point should have importance, even the one that takes you from full to one less than full.

And if people really want that sort of combat simulation in their RPG... there are plenty of RPGs out there for them to play that can give it to them. No one HAS to play D&D if they don't like what it does...

 

[Lanefan]

I mean, look at the wizard. What if any time they cast a spell they just rolled randomly on their entire spell list and that was what they cast?

SMH! Why and how, with all the gonzo chaos mages I've played over the years, did I never think of this?!

Thank you, kind person!!!

 

[Voadam]

And yet, a death spiral is - or should be - the whole damn point! The more hurt or fatigued you are, the less effective you are. Don't want to get into a potential death spiral? Then don't lose the hit points in the first place.

I disagree.

I want D&D BBEG fights at the end of the dungeon to be the big action hero climax fight where the PCs pull out their best moves as it comes down to the wire, not one where the heroes can barely swing a sword due to death spiraling.

I want heroes hp to be whacked down a lot in that climax fight and then they still pull out a win TKO, not to be smacked around by the BBEG then have the numbers of death spiral show them they have no chance.

 

[Lanefan]

It isn't hyperbole. I'm basing this on the idea of replacing a Battlemaster Fighter's maneuvers with something like this. If you were imagining it more like adding this to a Champion fighter, then sure, you haven't removed any tactical complexity (because it had almost none to begin with).

If, instead of just being able to declare a Trip Attack I instead get a random maneuver, that's a huge hit to tactical play. Instead of coordinating with the monk, where I'm going to trip the BBEG and the monk will pin him, I now have a 1 in X chance of a trip attack happening, and an (X - 1) in X chance of anything else happening. You don't see how that would impact one's ability to play tactically?

If one is trying to replicate the chaotic fog of war this is actually a very good way to do it. Yes you have these various moves and abilities that you know how to do, but you never know when or if an opportunity is going to arise to use any one of them in any given battle.

Result: no, you can't go in to a fight specifically intending to trip your foe; but you know you've always got that ability in your back pocket and if the chance comes up to use it (let's say e.g. you can only trip if your foe misses on a melee attack against you) that foe's going down.

 

[Lanefan]

1. Conditional Requirements
   • User With Advantage
   • Use a bonus action
   • Enemy Bloodied
   • Triggers enemy retaliation (aka opportunity attack)
   • Uses more than one attack
   • User Bloodied (when the going gets tough)
   • Reveals Deception (first time use benefit)
   • Exertion (2 points or 1 die)
2. Difficulties
   • Standard Maneuver (penalty of -5 if nothing applies)
   • Harder Maneuver (penalty of -5 if less than 2 applies and -10 if none does)

To add to list one, above:

--- Enemy has just missed User with a melee attack
--- Enemy has just hit User with a melee attack
--- Enemy and User have been fighting for more than four continuous rounds (i.e. gaining familiarity with the foe's moves etc.)
--- A third party joins (or leaves) the Enemy-User fight (i.e. a distraction)
--- One or both of Enemy or User are hit by missile fire or AoE damage