D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[GMforPowergamers]

I played World of Darkness games

when ever i am asked how to make players think more combat less I suggest the old world of darkness.

death spiral
backgrounds
spread out skills as main part of sheet

if your players still look for a bigger sword they will not change

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think that another important consideration is that realism isn't necessarily always going to be the top priority for someone playing a fantasy game like D&D.

Of course. But if someone isn't playing the death-spiral card on realism grounds, one can question what grounds they think they are playing it on.

Some people prefer a more cinematic approach. I mean, imagine how much less awesome Boromir's last stand would have been if he got shot and the orcs just started laughing at him because he could no longer hit them. Instead, he gets shot and momentarily turns into an orcish killing machine. For a brief time there, right before the arrow that takes him to his knees, it feels like he might actually turn it around (despite Sean Bean doing a great job of acting like he's been seriously injured).

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who play D&D are looking for that kind of a feeling, and you simply aren't likely to see that if you're using gritty death spiral mechanics. Realism be damned.

But the point is, it isn't even that realistic.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

There's ways of reducing it, the most obvious of which is to find non-combat solutions

this kind of goes with my WoD post... the worst/best thing my players learned from WoD and 1st E D&D is "Wait, lets make friends with 1 bad guy and make them fight ANOTHER bad guy..."

 

[Thomas Shey]

A saving throw system a la "mutants and masterminds" could be a rare example which could be the foundation for the eratic response people have on wounds

It is. Of course then if you don't want a lot of sudden-death results, you end up buffering it as M&M did with its Hero Point (or in True20 Conviction) mechanic, which ends up being kind of a roundabout hit points. Similar things occur in Savage Worlds.

 

[Garthanos]

Of course. But if someone isn't playing the death-spiral card on realism grounds, one can question what grounds they think they are playing it on.
But the point is, it isn't even that realistic.

Yup nature abhors a death spiral... like a vacuum

 

[Garthanos]

It is. Of course then if you don't want a lot of sudden-death results, you end up buffering it as M&M did with its Hero Point (or in True20 Conviction) mechanic, which ends up being kind of a roundabout hit points. Similar things occur in Savage Worlds.

I made my own Hit pointless D&D felt kind of anti-heroic and wrong genre, perhaps horror fiction or something

 

[Gammadoodler]

Well, the same studies pretty much say that fundamentally there are a sharply limited number of effect-cases in real combat:

1. Adrenaline and general tolerance paves over the injury until the fight is over at least and it sets in;
2. You bleed out.
3. You shock out (either physically or mentally--some people after a certain degree of injury just shut down as they realize on some level it happens).
4. A very small number of critical injuries either disable or outright kill you (though note most lethal injuries are not actually lethal instantly; a lot land in bleeding out, either immediately, short term or long term (and in fact, a lot of these can be prevented with a trained medic immediately on-scene), cause infection, or otherwise produce cascade effects that lead to mortality over time but won't do so instantly). This is actually uncommon when using most man-portable weapons, past or present; the more useful ones trigger case 2 or 3 above.

Most of these are not cumulative in any particularly meaningful way (though you can get some special cases with bleeding); while there are some complicating issues involving fatigue, especially in melee combat, people take multiple, sometimes serious injuries and keep fighting until the fight is over, and people take one half-way serious one and fold up. Very few game systems make even a gesture at representing this; D&D has never been one of them.

I'm pretty curious about this. Does the study mention if/how much the injuries impacted general combat effectiveness for those who carried on, and what the related weapons systems for the study are?

 

[Garthanos]

I'm pretty curious about this. Does the study mention if/how much the injuries impacted general combat effectiveness for those who carried on, and what the related weapons systems for the study are?

Military studies I read indicated there was something like a 5 percent performance degradation

 

[Fanaelialae]

Of course. But if someone isn't playing the death-spiral card on realism grounds, one can question what grounds they think they are playing it on.



But the point is, it isn't even that realistic.

I'm not much for death spirals, but I would guess more gritty fiction where death comes cheap and easy?

 

[James Gasik]

There's ways of reducing it, the most obvious of which is to find non-combat solutions (and melee tanks can participate in this just as well as can anyone else). Or get better armour. Or take defensive feats and abilities rather than just those that add to your DPR.

I would; and if the melee characters are the only ones taking damage then the DM is really doing something wrong.

I mean, in all the 5e I've played, that's generally what happens. The enemies and the melee rush towards each other, and just swing until someone falls down. DM's seem terrified of giving anyone a free hit on their monsters, and melee characters generally do more damage anyways, while ranged characters just plink away.

I played an archer Battlemaster in AL til 13th level and I rarely took a lot of damage (and the one time I did get focused, the DM was dismayed to realize that I had in excess of 100 hit points).

As far as defensive abilities go, there's not a lot of good ones is there? Heavy Armor Mastery is the best I can think of off hand. Dodging means you're not attacking for most people. As for non-combat solutions...most of the people I play with who play melee warriors seem averse to not running into melee and fighting, lol.

As for non-combat solutions...maybe? But it's been my experience that most people who play melee characters actually want to fight with them, to the point that I've had people protest when I attempt diplomacy or lock down foes with a spell!