D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

My point is there is an issue with running monsters due to metagame knowledge. For example, five guys were around him, he only gets one OA, so the other four know they can walk away without using the disengage action--that is kind of cheesy IMO.
I disagree about it being cheesy. All rounds are supposed to take place at the same time. If the cleric is focussing on Bugbear A, it is pretty clear that he won’t be able to swipe at Bugbears B through D who run past. Especially since if Bugbear A has a reason to run past, so do the others.

Is it cheesy when the players do it? If so, how do you police it?
 

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Is it cheesy when the players do it? If so, how do you police it?
I don't mean this personal, nor do I want this to derail the thread but I see this so often...

Why would anyone (except in the case of a toxic person and that is a different issue) need to 'police' a friend? Why not just all talk about it as a table, decide how you want to handle it (both with monsters and pcs) and then just go forward the way the group feels is most fun? No policing just talking, like adult friends? (and this isn't the only thing, I see it with skill checks, and metagaming, and abusing spells... like there is a whole subset of DMs that think they have to 'police' players)
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I don't mean this personal, nor do I want this to derail the thread but I see this so often...

Why would anyone (except in the case of a toxic person and that is a different issue) need to 'police' a friend? Why not just all talk about it as a table, decide how you want to handle it (both with monsters and pcs) and then just go forward the way the group feels is most fun? No policing just talking, like adult friends? (and this isn't the only thing, I see it with skill checks, and metagaming, and abusing spells... like there is a whole subset of DMs that think they have to 'police' players)
Do you have the luxury of exclusively gaming with friends you know well?

I certainly don't. Well, I do, but only in the narrow sense that I run a game with friends. Most of my friends have no interest in running, and the one who does has very old-school tastes that I don't particularly share.
 

I don't mean this personal, nor do I want this to derail the thread but I see this so often...

Why would anyone (except in the case of a toxic person and that is a different issue) need to 'police' a friend? Why not just all talk about it as a table, decide how you want to handle it (both with monsters and pcs) and then just go forward the way the group feels is most fun? No policing just talking, like adult friends? (and this isn't the only thing, I see it with skill checks, and metagaming, and abusing spells... like there is a whole subset of DMs that think they have to 'police' players)
Ennhh. When taking 'policing' to mean "preventing behaviors that feel like an exploit", I think there are a range of methods that can be effective without needing to have a discrete conversation for every one of them.

A conversation works, but it takes time from other things like getting on with the adventure. Where there are other measures that can be put in place without disruption, they are worth looking into.
 

Do you have the luxury of exclusively gaming with friends you know well?
mostly but not exclusively, and it is only since covid that even that was true...

my personal experience is right now 3 games (2 days a week 1 of those days alternating) with good friends who all DM... and one game that is supposed to be 1x a month but we are on like game 6 or 7 for a year.
pre 2020 lockdown I was playing 1 game and running 3. the 3 I was running were kids at a school function, my friends (mostly carry over to now), and a store game to help a store stay in business. I also have a long history of running at Cons.

So yeah, right now it's just friends, but anything BUT con game 1 shots works more or less the same way... you talk, like adults.
I certainly don't. Well, I do, but only in the narrow sense that I run a game with friends.
I see that as playing with friends.

Ennhh. When taking 'policing' to mean "preventing behaviors that feel like an exploit", I think there are a range of methods that can be effective without needing to have a discrete conversation for every one of them.
I don't understand why ANYthing would come before 'talk about it'? can you give an example of something that isn't worth a discussion with the group?
A conversation works, but it takes time from other things like getting on with the adventure. Where there are other measures that can be put in place without disruption, they are worth looking into.
can you give an example of how to handle it without talking?
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I disagree about it being cheesy. All rounds are supposed to take place at the same time. If the cleric is focussing on Bugbear A, it is pretty clear that he won’t be able to swipe at Bugbears B through D who run past. Especially since if Bugbear A has a reason to run past, so do the others.

I'm torn between wondering how much having some well described examples in the book would help make it not seem like an exploit ("The other bugbears will know that if one of them can distract you, the others can easily break free, so choose which one to stop wisely.") and wanting to be able to give up regular attacks (in the previous round? in the next round?) to get a bunch of attacks of opportunities.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Ennhh. When taking 'policing' to mean "preventing behaviors that feel like an exploit", I think there are a range of methods that can be effective without needing to have a discrete conversation for every one of them.

A conversation works, but it takes time from other things like getting on with the adventure. Where there are other measures that can be put in place without disruption, they are worth looking into.

If you don't have the conversation, other methods become a kind of passive-aggression. The players to not learn what the problem is, they merely find frustration when they do what they figure is okay, and it fails, because you haven't told them otherwise.

You don't need to have a separate conversation for each problem. Humans are capable of generalizing - inform them of the overall issue, and they can avoid a wide range of the cases.
 
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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Truth! And this is precisely what I would expect from the DMG, instead of 25 pages on planar travel and pages and pages of random tables.

One of the most frustrating things about the DMG is that most of it doesn’t seem to have been written for beginner DMs at all.
Don't we have starter sets and YouTube for that? Experienced DMs want books too.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I need to preface this post, I realized. I'm not against people who like to play games a certain way. If you and your group have fun, that's great. However, when it comes to the complaints I hear, well....

What surprises me is how some people who prefer older versions of D&D act like people wanting less restrictions on casters is a new thing. I mean, looking in my 1e DMG, I see Rings of Wizardry that double spell slots of a given level, Boccob's Blessed Books that can contain a whole spell library that fits in your backpack, and powerful Wands and Staves that can only be used by Wizards.

By 2e, the Tome of Magic (1991), we have spells that conjure spell components and lower magic resistance of enemies.

And as far as resource management goes, well, Murlynd's Spoons, Quivers of Ehlonna, Daern's Instant Fortress, Rods of Splendor, Bags of Holding, Portable Holes, Heward's Handy Haversack, etc., etc., have been in the game for a very long time as well.

Now I know, someone might say "well the DM decides if these things enter the game", but that's never really changed. It seems obvious to me that this "problem" (if you think it is one) has never really been one for D&D. You were always meant to be able to find ways to progress beyond worrying about starving in the wilderness, being picked apart by wolves, and finding a place to take a nap.

Characters were meant to have a means to become more magical, and grow beyond the limits of their class and race. This is part of what makes D&D, well, D&D!

What people are waxing nostalgic for isn't some lost ancient D&D, but the "low level experience".

A friend of mine, Tom, once said he wanted to run a 1e game the way the game was "meant to be played". When I asked him about this, he brought up how the game is the most fun at levels 1-7, and that he wanted to institute the training cost rules- ie, that you had to pay X amount of cash to gain levels on top of xp, and that this would keep characters poor and eventually they'd need so much gold to hit higher levels that it wouldn't be worth it.

"But Tom", I said, "don't you get experience points for finding gold in the first place? I mean, you don't get very much from fighting monsters anyways. So by the time even a Thief is looking at 8th level, shouldn't he have earned something like 40 thousand gold pieces in treasure?"

We quibbled about the exact amount of xp would come from treasure, but eventually he mumbled something about "guild dues". "So basically, the only way this works is if, on top of training costs, you artificially keep characters poor."

"Well, that's the way we played", was his response.

"And this was fun?"

"...sometimes?"

"I see. Well if you're going to run, I'm in, but I got to say, it feels like you're fighting the system to get the experience you want."

That game never did materialize, because by the next time we spoke, he'd dusted off his Runemaster books, lol.

When I think of gaming along these lines, I'm reminded of old PC games like Ultima, Wizardry, Bard's Tale, or Might & Magic, which often had you worry about carrying around torches and food. But interestingly, most of those games also eventually let spellcasters create light, conjure food, or teleport out of dungeons, as even the creators of those games knew that as the game progressed, these things would become tedious to the player.

So it's not a surprise to me why D&D has continued this trend of phasing out these sorts of things, since they've been doing it since the early days of the game.
Sure, but phasing them out almost instantly, and speeding up the process to get to that point, effectively removes that experience. There was a time, not that long ago in the current edition, when WotC at least paid lip service to being for all players, included those who appreciated resource management and delayed gratification.
 

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