D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Micah Sweet]

To me, this is exactly backwards. The Core books (MM, PHB and DMG) should be aimed at those entering the hobby. Those that have experience or are committed can seek out specialized resources.

Those beginner DMs are precisely those that will have the hardest time distinguishing between good advice and bad advice on Youtube.

Again, starter sets and YouTube "influencers" accomplish these tasks. You don't need to focus on new players in the core books.

And what specialized resources? WotC doesn't put out books they don't think everyone will buy.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think the question is, what non-magical ways are there to overcome challenges? The game offers you skill checks and beating things up with weapons.

EDIT: forgot vaguely defined background Features.

All of those methods are vastly improved in Level Up.

 

[James Gasik]

All of those methods are vastly improved in Level Up.

And if people want to switch to that (or any other game), that's great. But D&D the way it is...well...I guess we'll see what D&D One will be like.

Hopefully it won't be the Pepsi Blue of TTRPG's.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And if people want to switch to that (or any other game), that's great. But D&D the way it is...well...I guess we'll see what D&D One will be like.

Hopefully it won't be the Pepsi Blue of TTRPG's.

See, D&D is Level Up, and any other 3pp you want to use, and AL. I assume when you say, "D&D as it is", you mean WotC's version of 5e, which is a specific flavor of the game no more important than any other.

 

[Undrave]

I think the issue is when magic is the only way to overcome specific challenges.

One terrible example of this is the Mummy’s rotting touch. Sure, your character may have spent resources to become skilled in Medicine, they may also have Expertise and a relevant background feature, and have spent money on a healer’s kit and vials of antidote. However, you are SoL since Mummy Rot is only curable by magical means.

But why?

Oh man, same thing with the FRICKIN' Clay Golem! It's got a thing where it can reduce your max HP (already a pain in the butt to track as a condition) but not only is it ONLY curable by magic... it's only curable by ONE Spell! Greater Restoration! If you don't have anyone able to learn that spell or are not high enough level? Sucks to be you I guess?? And when you're a melee guy, your HP are basically one of your major class feature and this one monster just takes away a class feature. Get hit too much and you're completely useless at the role you've been spending all your ressources in out of friggin' nowhere! And unlike a Wizard you can't just sleep and respec into a ranged character until you get fixed.

Total BS.

 

[ECMO3]

Oh man, same thing with the FRICKIN' Clay Golem! It's got a thing where it can reduce your max HP (already a pain in the butt to track as a condition) but not only is it ONLY curable by magic... it's only curable by ONE Spell! Greater Restoration! If you don't have anyone able to learn that spell or are not high enough level? Sucks to be you I guess?? And when you're a melee guy, your HP are basically one of your major class feature and this one monster just takes away a class feature. Get hit too much and you're completely useless at the role you've been spending all your ressources in out of friggin' nowhere! And unlike a Wizard you can't just sleep and respec into a ranged character until you get fixed.

Total BS.

I am totally cool with this. You CHOSE to play the class and in my games we prefer not mess than up or nerf enemies just because casters can "do it better".

If you are not cool with it though then don't play with Golems or other such monsters or play homebrew versions of the game where fighters get "powers" that aren't "magic" but deny the laws of physics just the same (just don't call it magic) or better yet, pick a different class.

As for me I have no problem with magic being the only way to fix something because it is .... well magic .... and this is a fantasy game.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't mean this personal, nor do I want this to derail the thread but I see this so often...

Why would anyone (except in the case of a toxic person and that is a different issue) need to 'police' a friend? Why not just all talk about it as a table, decide how you want to handle it (both with monsters and pcs) and then just go forward the way the group feels is most fun? No policing just talking, like adult friends? (and this isn't the only thing, I see it with skill checks, and metagaming, and abusing spells... like there is a whole subset of DMs that think they have to 'police' players)

That's because the DM is in part to be a referee; and a referee's job is to police the players, and the game.

 

[Lanefan]

I think the issue is when magic is the only way to overcome specific challenges.

One terrible example of this is the Mummy’s rotting touch. Sure, your character may have spent resources to become skilled in Medicine, they may also have Expertise and a relevant background feature, and have spent money on a healer’s kit and vials of antidote. However, you are SoL since Mummy Rot is only curable by magical means.

But why?

I don't mind the idea of some things only being curable or fixable by magical means. The problem IMO arises when those magical means are available in the field becuase the PCs are high enough level to hard-cast the required spells.

Ideally, something like Mummy rot should force a very nasty choice on to the party: a) to keep pressing on while watching one of our number slowly fall apart; or b) bail on the mission, go back to town and get the rot fixed, then try again.

Ideally also, Mummies and their rot are things rarely seen, such that it's unusual and special and scary when they do arise.

 

[Lanefan]

Oh man, same thing with the FRICKIN' Clay Golem! It's got a thing where it can reduce your max HP (already a pain in the butt to track as a condition) but not only is it ONLY curable by magic... it's only curable by ONE Spell! Greater Restoration! If you don't have anyone able to learn that spell or are not high enough level? Sucks to be you I guess??

Only because you've an unpleasant decision in front of you: to carry on at reduced h.p.; or to go back to town alone; or to try and talk the rest of the party into going back with you.

In a game I play in we're in this boat right now: two of our number (one a front-liner, the other a mage, FWIW) got hit by a clay golem and can't be cured. We don't have Heal in the field (in our game it's Heal that fixes this), meaning we had to find a way of getting those two out to help and back again without giving up our hard-won ground. We managed it, but at cost of time and resources.

 

[Undrave]

I am totally cool with this. You CHOSE to play the class and in my games we prefer not mess than up or nerf enemies just because casters can "do it better".

If you are not cool with it though then don't play with Golems or other such monsters or play homebrew versions of the game where fighters get "powers" that aren't "magic" but deny the laws of physics just the same (just don't call it magic) or better yet, pick a different class.

As for me I have no problem with magic being the only way to fix something because it is .... well magic .... and this is a fantasy game.

Really easy to do that if you never knew the Clay Golem existed (or the DM reskinned it >.> yes I'm still bitter on that one) until he started hacking away at your front liner and you realized you'd need like TWO WHOLE LEVELS before learning the SINGLE SPELL that could fix it.

DnD is supposed to be a game full of infinite possibility and then you design a monster with an affliction that has a SINGLE SOLUTION?! I'm sorry but that's not only bad design, it's a STUPID design.

I'm not even asking for an instantaneous cure. I don't mind that the Paladin can't just go take an hour long nap and be fine... but give me some damn outs! What even IS that effect? Is it a curse? Is it a disease? Is it a spell that can be dispelled? No, it's just... is?

Have you ever seen a 4e disease track? That stuff would have worked wonder for that kind of condition, and the disease track interacted ith more than just one single friggin' spell! You know who learns Greater Restoration: Bard, Druid, Cleric and Celestial Warlock. Bard and Warlock don't get to just sleep and switch spells, so if they don't think it's that useful because the kind of condition it's designed to counter doesn't happen often, you could just be without that spell completely if your party doesn't include a Druid or Cleric capable of casting 5th level spells.

The condition itself is honestly pretty lame, as it basically punished a tank for tanking. IMO it feels designed by a mean spirited DM who was tired his melee types were getting too cool for non-casters.