D&D (2024) Rogue Playtest Discussion

[Bill Zebub]

Might want to go easy on the accusations of lying.

 

[Mistwell]

Crawford also explained in the videos that the rules glossary of later UA supersedes the rules glossaries of earlier UA. The latest UA says to use the 2014 Crit rules, not the ones from the previous UA. You're wrong and you missed a substantial change in this UA. Rogues can still double Critical Sneak Attack damage. This is from the most recent UA's rules glossary (you can double check for yourself, just "CTRL + F" it)

I didn't miss it and I don't think I am wrong. He switched the inspiration issue around to test a different method for inspiration and just used the old crit because otherwise he'd have to re-write that again when he just wants to test the inspiration mechanic issue. But I think he's pretty settled on that other aspect of crits. We shall see, but I didn't miss anything. I genuinely believe the other aspect of the change (weapon damage only) is confirmed for 2024 based on his videos.

:

I hope this clears things up.

It's actually more substantial than that

It's literally identical to Pack Tactics. It's the identical words, with literally only the name changed.

. It means that so long as they have an ally within 5 feet of their target, they always get to sneak attack, because the advantage cancels out any potential disadvantages they might get. This helps a lot for ranged rogues that might have disadvantage from long range, from being within 5 feet of the enemy, being prone, restrained, or inflicted with some other debilitating condition.

Yes, I know. That's Pack Tactics.

This is a great buff.

No, it's meaningless for most campaigns. According to WOTC, most campaigns have ended before 13th level. The number of games this will impact is small. They had advantage guaranteed with Steady Aim at THIRD LEVEL before, and now it takes TEN more levels to get advantage when you need it? That's definitely not a "great buff." I'll likely never run a rogue to those levels. None of our campaigns in all these years of 5e, starting with the early beta test, have ever gotten to 13th level.

We'll have to wait until after the survey to find out! I personally think level 7 is a bit early to get "completely ignore Fireball most of the time", especially when you get an extra Subclass ability to make up for delaying the feature 2 levels, but I'd be fine with either.

Yep! So it's a smaller nerf than you thought! (Doesn't work on Initiative unless you're a bunnyman, doesn't work on Counterspell/Dispel Magic unless you're a level 10 Aburation Wizard multiclassed 11 levels into Rogue somehow, et cetera.) And, since tool checks are now based off of specific skills, that means that more tools are available with Reliable Talent. That's an overall buff, IMO.

You no longer can get expertise in tools though, for what that is worth.

So they gain the whip, which they can sneak attack with at reach, and lose the longsword, which is mostly useless to them because they can't sneak attack with it. I don't consider that a nerf.

Yep! I thought it was neat! Rogues basically get an extra Expertise because of this (they don't have to choose Thieves' Tools and Sleight of Hand to have proficiency with both, they get both just from choosing Thieves' Tools).

Rogues definitely have seen a nerf overall so far. And the overwhelming majority of reviews of this rogue agree they're seeing an overall reduction in power.

And that makes zero sense. According to prior surveys it was a class with some of the most universal agreement that it was good as it was. There was no reason to reduce their power. Nobody was saying they were overpowered. Everyone seemed to like them as they were.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Demonstrably untrue.

Here's what Rogues lost:

• Sneak Attack on a Reaction (which was probably not intended to work in the first place).

How do you figure it was "not intended to work in the first place"? If so, they would have worded it differently, or said something in Sage Advice. Also, it's a loss in two ways: no Sneak Attack on opportunity attacks, and no Sneak Attack when holding an Action. They were both a big deal.

• Sneak Attack with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade for any rogue of the right race/feat ability (also absolutely unintended). You can still Sneak Attack with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade if you have 6 levels in Bladesinger, though.
• Longsword proficiency (largely useless anyway)
• Hand-Crossbow proficiency
• The option to gain Performance proficiency from their class skills (barely a nerf, you can always take it from your background skills)
• The ability to use Evasion when incapacitated (which was ridiculous anyway)
• Blindsense

You forgot Use an Object not being part of Cunning Action, which means no healer kits, and no healing potions. That was a big part of rogue play for a lot of us.

If you merely count nerfs and buffs (and include the buffs that all classes get) then you might conclude that buffs > nerfs. But D&D is largely a game of killing monsters, and a significant hit to damage will, for a lot of people, vastly outweigh being better at picking locks and jumping.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I didn't miss it and I don't think I am wrong. He switched the inspiration issue around to test a different method for inspiration and just used the old crit because otherwise he'd have to re-write that again when he just wants to test the inspiration mechanic issue. But I think he's pretty settled on that other aspect of crits. We shall see, but I didn't miss anything. I genuinely believe the other aspect of the change (weapon damage only) is confirmed for 2024 based on his videos.

He literally says in the video that they're returning back to the 2014 Crit rules. He mentions that they're changing the Inspiration Generation mechanic from natural 20s to natural 1s, but he also separately mentions a return to normal Critical Hits. The document even says that they're doing that. He says both in the video and the document that if a new rule contradicts an old rule, the newer one takes priority. You are 100% wrong here. Rogues can absolutely double their sneak attack damage on critical hits. This isn't a debate or matter of interpretation. There is nothing in the document or videos to suggest that you're right.

It's literally identical to Pack Tactics. It's the identical words, with literally only the name changed.

Yes, I know. That's Pack Tactics.

You're right. I thought Pack Tactics only worked in melee.

No, it's meaningless for most campaigns. According to WOTC, most campaigns have ended before 13th level. The number of games this will impact is small. They had advantage guaranteed with Steady Aim at THIRD LEVEL before, and now it takes TEN more levels to get advantage when you need it? That's definitely not a "great buff." I'll likely never run a rogue to those levels. None of our campaigns in all these years of 5e, starting with the early beta test, have ever gotten to 13th level.

Steady Aim requires your bonus action and takes all of your movement (and doesn't work if you had moved this turn). This would benefit rogues that have Steady Aim. We don't have any indication that Steady Aim isn't allowed anymore. And, it being a later-level feature doesn't make this not a great buff for the rogues that get it. Sure, a lot of people don't play at higher levels. I do. I have 2 players that will benefit a lot from this feature.

If you've been playing since the early tests, you've been playing 5e longer than I have. But I've gotten to those levels in multiple different campaigns.

It's a good buff, even if it's at higher levels.

You no longer can get expertise in tools though, for what that is worth.

I think you're misremembering a rule. In the 2014 PHB, you could only choose one tool to get expertise in: Thieves' Tools. Now, you automatically get Expertise in Thieves' Tools if you have proficiency in Sleight of Hand. That's a buff. If you have expertise in any other skill that's used for another type of tools, it applies to those tools too (Disguise Kits might use Performance/Deception, or Smith's Tools could use Athletics, for example). You don't choose specific tools to get Expertise in, and Rogues couldn't do that in the first place.

Rogues definitely have seen a nerf overall so far. And the overwhelming majority of reviews of this rogue agree they're seeing an overall reduction in power.

And that makes zero sense. According to prior surveys it was a class with some of the most universal agreement that it was good as it was. There was no reason to reduce their power. Nobody was saying they were overpowered. Everyone seemed to like them as they were.

As I showed in this post, Rogues probably have gotten buffed overall (compared to the 2014 version, I'm not saying if they got more nerfs/buffs than the other classes). Most of their nerfs were situational and they got a lot of little buffs that add up (an extra feat at level 1, earlier subclass features, major dual wielding buffs, being way better with Thieves' Tools if they take proficiency/expertise in Sleight of Hand, etc). And most rogues probably didn't get Reaction Sneak Attacks that much (and Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade Rogues were definitely niche, too).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

How do you figure it was "not intended to work in the first place"? If so, they would have worded it differently, or said something in Sage Advice. Also, it's a loss in two ways: no Sneak Attack on opportunity attacks, and no Sneak Attack when holding an Action. They were both a big deal.

I always assumed that "once a turn" was meant to limit sneak attack to once a round, but the game designers didn't realize that it would apply to Opportunity Attacks and multiclass combos.

How often do opportunity attacks where you get to Sneak Attack happen? How often do Held Action Sneak Attacks happen? Both of those scenarios are pretty uncommon in my experience. I don't think that this is a big deal, except for niche builds (multiclassed into Battlemaster) or strange campaigns where rogues are making opportunity sneak attacks all of the time.

You forgot Use an Object not being part of Cunning Action, which means no healer kits, and no healing potions. That was a big part of rogue play for a lot of us.

That's just Thief Rogues. I didn't include it into the class buff/nerf breakdown.

If you merely count nerfs and buffs (and include the buffs that all classes get) then you might conclude that buffs > nerfs. But D&D is largely a game of killing monsters, and a significant hit to damage will, for a lot of people, vastly outweigh being better at picking locks and jumping.

The "significant hit to damage" only applies to rogues regularly getting Reaction Sneak Attacks (which are really uncommon, in my experience) or abusing the Blade Cantrips to increase their DPR. And, like I showed in that post, the buffs aren't just "better at picking locks and jumping". They get extra feats, huge buffs to Dual Wielding, more/earlier subclass features, and much more. The hits to damage are neglibible, and the buff to Dual Wielding will be way more useful to most rogues than situational reaction attacks will be.

 

[Bill Zebub]

but the game designers didn't realize that it would apply to Opportunity Attacks and multiclass combos.

That's....a rather shocking indictment of the intelligence of the designers.

Both of those scenarios are pretty uncommon in my experience.

(which are really uncommon, in my experience)

Maybe that's the difference. Some of us see the reaction attacks happening a lot:

1. Hold Action until the enemy pops out of hiding
2. Hold Action (especially in first round of combat) until an enemy is within 5' of an ally
3. Regular opportunity attacks (which happens a lot in my group; YMMV)
4. Opportunity attacks triggered by dissonant whispers
5. Opportunity attacks triggered by feats (e.g. Mage Slayer, and I've even seen a rogue take Sentinel and get a TON of sneak attacks with it.)

If you're not seeing these things happen then that's a difference in tables and play style. But in my experience these things happen a lot. Eliminating the held action option is particularly egregious, as those are sneak attacks instead of the SA on their turn, rather than in addition to.

 

[Bill Zebub]

huge buffs to Dual Wielding

Oh, and I disagree with that. The change to dual wielding is a huge buff to Cunning Action. Under the old rules, if I hit with my first short sword (and thus got my SA) I might disengage or do something else with my bonus action. But if I missed with my first attack I would almost always still use the offhand attack (except for some edge cases) and sacrifice my cunning action. So the new dual wielding rules mostly mean I get more cunning actions, not more damage.

P.S. And steady aim is/was great because it lets you, at level 3, get SA on targets that aren't engaged with your allies. Like enemy archers, or that annoying caster. Subtle Strikes, at level 13, does not replicate that. And, yes, you sacrifice your movement, but if there was someplace to move to hide you would have moved there and used cunning action Hide in order to get advantage. So if you're using it you're probably stuck out in the open anyway.

 

[Kobold Stew]

There's some dodgy counting here, so let's look at this.
1.

• Automatic advantage when using Thieves' Tools at level 1 if you choose Sleight of Hand as one of your proficient skills from the class or a background (boosted up to advantage and Expertise if you choose Expertise in Sleight of Hand)

I see this as a nerf. They used to be the only class who could get expertise in thieves tools. Now any expert class can get this advantage. In fact, none of the tool points are rogue-specific, which also excludes

• Expertise in more tools, because Tool Checks are now based on skills (this depends on what skills you have proficiency in)
• Reliable Talent on more tools, because Tool Checks are now based on skills (this also depends on what skills you have proficiency in)

2. You list a number of benefits all classes get:

• An extra feat at level 1 from your background (which other classes also get, but rogues from the 2014 PHB didn't, so it still counts as a buff to rogue characters transitioning from 5e to OneD&D)
• An extra Subclass feature at level 6 (which is why Expertise and Evasion are delayed a bit)
• An automatic Epic Boon at level 20 (which other classes also get, but rogues from the 2014 PHB didn't, so it still counts as a buff to rogue characters transitioning from 5e to OneD&D)

So that's not about the rogue either (as you recognize)

3.

• Whip Proficiency (which can be dual-wielded)

Has to be seen in terms of the overall change of weapon proficiencies. So of all the rogues you've seen, how many used hand crossbow as their main weapon? I've seen many, and think this is overall a nerf.

4. You are selective about presenting changes in specific abilities, too.

• Proficiency with Charisma Saving throws from Slippery Mind (meaning that you'll have 4 saving throw proficiencies automatically, which you can boost to up 5 if you have the Resilient Feat)

counts as a boon for you, but no mention is made of losing Bonus action for Use and Object at level 3. Which one affects play more over the course of a campaign? Overall, a nerf. [EDIT: I see you've answered this in the previous post, written while I was typing]

5. You list three benefits with getting abilities early....

• Elusive at level 17 instead of level 18
• Stroke of Luck at level 18 instead of level 20
• Earlier subclass features (Their level 13 feature is moved to level 10, their level 17 feature is moved to level 14)

...but exclude the ones delayed from your count

They also had a couple features delayed by a level or two (the second Expertise feature was moved from level 6 to level 7, Evasion was moved from level 7 to level 9).

I'll note that early game abilities are delayed, late game abilities put earlier. Overall, it's a nerf.

6. There is a change in abilities -- Blindsense at 14 has become Pack tactics at 13; obth are valuable. I'll call that a wash.

• An extra feature at level 13, which makes it so if an ally is within 5 feet of the creature you're attacking, you will always sneak attack (and be more likely to crit sneak attack because you'll normally have advantage on the attack roll).

7. Changes to Sneak Attack.
As has been discussed in this thread, there are several changes to the iconic Rogue ability. You list two cases

• Sneak Attack on a Reaction (which was probably not intended to work in the first place).
• Sneak Attack with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade for any rogue of the right race/feat ability (also absolutely unintended). You can still Sneak Attack with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade if you have 6 levels in Bladesinger, though.

• without acknowledging how much the first one excludes: Ready an Action, opportunity attacks, or a Battlemaster's Commander's Strike. That is not inconsequential.

In addition, if the rules for Critical Strike from the first playtest pack are kept, then Sneak attack dice do not double on a crit. So that's another substantial nerf. (Many would count that as two nerfs, but let's be conservative).

8. I am not concerned about two of the abilities lost that you list

• The option to gain Performance proficiency from their class skills (barely a nerf, you can always take it from your background skills)
• The ability to use Evasion when incapacitated (which was ridiculous anyway)

so let's discount them. As you note, there is an extra language.

• An extra language at level 1 granted in addition to Thieves' Cant

So there's a boon. That'll be a game changer.

9. And there is a genuine boon for two-weapon fighters:

• An extra attack as part of the Attack Action if you dual wield (no longer taking your bonus action, which can be used for Cunning Action, which dual-wielding rogues previously couldn't do)

So let's summarize:

Of the 9 categories of changes, some are a wash and I'll exclude (2, 6).

For boons:
You get a language (8) and have a better chance of getting your sneak attack damage if you are a dual wielder (9).

For losses:

• Thieves tool specialties are no longer a rogue ability (1)
• Changes in weapon proficiencies are overall a loss (3)
• Changes in specific abilities helps late-game abilities but hurts early-game ones (4)
• Abilities that are delayed are in levels 1-10, ones that come earlier are in 11-20, and so keep most players from them (5)
• Sneak attack has been weakened in multiple ways (7).

(There is no doubt more that could be added, too).

In my mind, it is clear that the Rogue has lost significantly with this package.

So, that's 7 nerfs, quite a few of which are fairly minor or situational and 14 buffs, quite a few of which are really big (Dual Wielding, an extra feat, buffs to tools, more and earlier subclass features, another saving throw proficiency, so on).

By my count, the Rogue class gets twice as many buffs as it gets nerfs.

I am sure you are very sincere in your counting here, and believe that your numbers are balanced and accurate. I hope you can at least see why someone might disagree with the way you have reckoned these things.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

That's....a rather shocking indictment of the intelligence of the designers.

I never said they were stupid. I just said that they designed a feature in a way they didn't intend it to work. Which happens all the time, regardless of how intelligent the designers are.

Maybe that's the difference. Some of us see the reaction attacks happening a lot:

1. Hold Action until the enemy pops out of hiding
2. Hold Action (especially in first round of combat) until an enemy is within 5' of an ally
3. Regular opportunity attacks (which happens a lot in my group; YMMV)
4. Opportunity attacks triggered by dissonant whispers
5. Opportunity attacks triggered by feats (e.g. Mage Slayer, and I've even seen a rogue take Sentinel and get a TON of sneak attacks with it.)

If you're not seeing these things happen then that's a difference in tables and play style. But in my experience these things happen a lot. Eliminating the held action option is particularly egregious, as those are sneak attacks instead of the SA on their turn, rather than in addition to.

1. I guess I just don't run monsters that do that very often?
2. It's really hard to predict where a monster is going to move a lot of the time, and if they don't do what you want them do, then you lose a whole action.
3. I almost never have opportunity attacks trigger. They don't move away from a target unless they are running from the battle, in which case they typically Disengage first. Are you just having the monsters run from one PC to another letting opportunity attacks happen all the time?
4. How common are Bards/GOOlocks in your games?
5. I have played 3 campaigns with Rogues, but never seen any of them take Mage Slayer or Sentinel.

And, I'll note again, I wouldn't be surprised if Ready Action is changed a lot. It's currently pretty confusing and restricting. They could change it to a "Held Turn" feature where you just delay your entire turn, in which case you could still Sneak Attack on Readied Actions. We don't know yet, but we'll have to see Ready Action's changes to fully confirm if this is changed.

Oh, and I disagree with that. The change to dual wielding is a huge buff to Cunning Action. Under the old rules, if I hit with my first short sword (and thus got my SA) I might disengage or do something else with my bonus action. But if I missed with my first attack I would almost always still use the offhand attack (except for some edge cases) and sacrifice my cunning action. So the new dual wielding rules mostly mean I get more cunning actions, not more damage.

Wait, how is this not a damage buff? In that circumstance, you still had to choose between using your bonus action to be cool (Cunning Action) or deal damage (Dual Wield). This change doesn't force you to choose, which would buff your damage by a dice roll every turn in combat. And even if this doesn't buff your damage, Cunning Action makes you less likely to take damage (Disengage/Dash to get out of an enemy's reach), which will boost your damage in the long run.

P.S. And steady aim is/was great because it lets you, at level 3, get SA on targets that aren't engaged with your allies. Like enemy archers, or that annoying caster. Subtle Strikes, at level 13, does not replicate that. And, yes, you sacrifice your movement, but if there was someplace to move to hide you would have moved there and used cunning action Hide in order to get advantage. So if you're using it you're probably stuck out in the open anyway.

So Steady Aim is now good for both ranged and melee rogues! You can Dual Wield and use your bonus action to make sure you Sneak Attack this turn. That's a damage buff!

 

[Mistwell]

He literally says in the video that they're returning back to the 2014 Crit rules. He mentions that they're changing the Inspiration Generation mechanic from natural 20s to natural 1s, but he also separately mentions a return to normal Critical Hits. The document even says that they're doing that. He says both in the video and the document that if a new rule contradicts an old rule, the newer one takes priority. You are 100% wrong here. Rogues can absolutely double their sneak attack damage on critical hits. This isn't a debate or matter of interpretation. There is nothing in the document or videos to suggest that you're right.

Of course it's a debate. I agree for this version of the playtest doc only they're using the old crit rule. That does not however in any way say that's the rule they're going with even next playtest doc, much less in two years. It's my opinion, which is not a statement of fact, that they're going with the "crits only include weapon damage" version in the final version for 2024 based on what Crawford has said in videos. You are free to disagree but you're not free to tell me there is only one opinion allowed in this topic.

You're right. I thought Pack Tactics only worked in melee.

Steady Aim requires your bonus action and takes all of your movement (and doesn't work if you had moved this turn). This would benefit rogues that have Steady Aim. We don't have any indication that Steady Aim isn't allowed anymore. And, it being a later-level feature doesn't make this not a great buff for the rogues that get it. Sure, a lot of people don't play at higher levels. I do. I have 2 players that will benefit a lot from this feature.

Yes Pack Tactics is better than Steady Aim and if the Rogue got Pact Tactics at level 3, or even level 6, I'd be thrilled. But getting it at level 13 I really don't care a lot. And I am assuming Steady Aim, along with all of Tasha's, is going away in terms of the optional rules because I believe they were intended as patches to the old rules in the first place. I think part of the point of One D&D is to adopt the patches which they thought worked as the main rules. But again, I could be wrong. Let's see what they say about Tasha's and how it could work with the new rules.

If you've been playing since the early tests, you've been playing 5e longer than I have. But I've gotten to those levels in multiple different campaigns.

It's a good buff, even if it's at higher levels.

D&D Beyond data showed that NINTEY PERCENT of players don't get beyond 10th level. Which means even if you think that stat is off by a lot, it's still an overwhelming majority who don't play at 13th level.

I think you're misremembering a rule. In the 2014 PHB, you could only choose one tool to get expertise in: Thieves' Tools. Now, you automatically get Expertise in Thieves' Tools if you have proficiency in Sleight of Hand.

No now you get expertise in Sleight of Hand if you had proficiency in Sleight of Hand, not Thieves Tools. You no longer can get expertise in Thieves Tools.

That's a buff. If you have expertise in any other skill that's used for another type of tools, it applies to those tools too (Disguise Kits might use Performance/Deception, or Smith's Tools could use Athletics, for example). You don't choose specific tools to get Expertise in, and Rogues couldn't do that in the first place.

Rogues got "At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools."

As I showed in this post, Rogues probably have gotten buffed overall (compared to the 2014 version, I'm not saying if they got more nerfs/buffs than the other classes).

I didn't think you showed it in that post. What you showed is similar to the original 3e reaction to Monks - counting individual abilities as opposed to overall impact. I think their overall effectiveness goes down. And that is so far the general consensus of reviewers of this document - which doesn't make that position correct but it does suggest I am not alone in thinking they're taking a loss on this one.

Most of their nerfs were situational and they got a lot of little buffs that add up (an extra feat at level 1, earlier subclass features, major dual wielding buffs, being way better with Thieves' Tools if they take proficiency/expertise in Sleight of Hand, etc). And most rogues probably didn't get Reaction Sneak Attacks that much (and Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade Rogues were definitely niche, too).

I am in no way going to count anything which all classes get as a buff for this class. The measurement is relative to those other classes. If all classes get a level 1 feat, then no class is being buffed by getting a level 1 feat. That's a net neutral gain - they got what everyone got by default, not an increase.

If you never knew a Rogue to ready an action to get an attack which resulted in a sneak attack, I don't know what to tell yah. It's not that uncommon.