D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[James Gasik]

Because there are many corner case scenarios where it will still be useful on an ally. Say everyone is in jail. Cast it on the cleric and turn him into a dragonfly. When the dumb insect invariably flies out of the cell through either the bars to the rest of the jail or the small window bars, stop concentrating and watch him tumble a few feet to freedom where he can help the rest of you escape.

I don't think you could turn someone into a dragonfly without the DM's permission- that's not a beast that has game statistics. Also, while I know it was just an example, who would imprison a spellcaster and still allow them to use their magic?

Surely spell components, holy symbols, and focuses are going to be confiscated?

Another thing that strikes me as odd about this spell- why does polymorph use a Wisdom saving throw and not Constitution?

 

[Lanefan]

Then it's the flip side problem. A spell that grants hundreds of HP at zero cost, typically greatly increased combat output and quite probably considerable movement bonuses should probably be an 7th or 8th level spell. Or to put it another way, a 5th level spell that lets my 9th level wizard make the 9th level fighter look like a complete chump is a problem.

One thing I've always done with Polymorph is that the target (be it self or someone else) keeps the same hit point total as it already had.

Thus, if a 32 h.p. wizard changes herself into an elephant she's a 32 h.p. elephant. Flip side - she becomes a 32 h.p. rat should she change into one in order, say, to get into somewhere too small to otherwise fit.

Personally? I'd rather they made it simpler. You gain +2 to hit, +5 to damage and 10 (or maybe a bit more) temp HP/round.

Which is fine if you're turning yourself into a bigger combat-oriented creature, but IME Polymorph (Self) is far more often used out of combat, to become something like a bloodhound (for tracking by scent) or a rat (to fit into places) or a seagull or eagle (aerial scouting and-or faster travel). Giving combat benefits and extra hit points to those seems...odd, at the least.

Also, this kinda fights hard against using Polymorph (Other) as an offensive spell that weakens or even outright kills a foe. But then I see...

Choose a movement type that makes sense and off you go. Flavor what you turn into any way you like. On the flip side, as a spell against baddies, you simply remove all attacks and abilities for the duration, save every round. Reduce speed to 5 feet.

...this. AFAIC that would be a completely different spell. Speed should still be dependent on the creature chosen, thus if your intent is to slow the target down, turn it into a turtle.

Personally, when used against a foe I don't mind Polymorph being able to kill outright if used creatively e.g. turning someone into a giant while said someone is in a space far too small to contain one. Very messy.

In both cases, the target loses access to class/race abilities for the duration.

Yes.

 

[Maxperson]

If polymorph is meant to be used on enemies, then why is there a CR restriction for what you can turn someone into? I wouldn't turn an enemy into a T-Rex or Giant Ape!

Why not? I think it would be fantastic to turn an enemy soldier in the middle of the camp into a t-rex. Think of the damage and confusion it would create!

Plus primarily =/= only. There will be times when it is useful to use on an ally. See the jail scenario in my other post.

Also, for the people who argue about being able to tell friend from foe, I'm curious- if I turn an Orc into a Giant Ape, is he going to immediately start turning on his allies if they're closest?

I wouldn't think so, but then apes are smarter than dinosaurs in the books. An ape has an int of 6 and giant apes an int of 7, which is plenty in my mind to be able to discern the different between those friendly to you and those not.

I'm suddenly imagining, with the shoe on the other foot, a lot of DM's suddenly saying "well the spell doesn't change the Orc's personality, so there's no reason it would attack it's allies".

Actually, orcs are violent and warlike as currently written. That personality would very much work against them.

The DM's job is to be as fair and impartial as he can be, so if he's suddenly trying to argue the other side, he should maybe take a closer look at his original ruling.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think you could turn someone into a dragonfly without the DM's permission- that's not a beast that has game statistics. Also, while I know it was just an example, who would imprison a spellcaster and still allow them to use their magic?

Magic by RAW is relatively rare. Wizards do not abound and people don't just know them on sight or what they can or cannot do. Cells are also not for the most part going to be surrounded by anti-magic fields. There's a really good chance that the wizard is in jail with his components.

Edit: While there are no statblocks for dragonflies, it's clearly an insect and therefore a beast. I'd allow it and just figure out stats if they are even needed.

Surely spell components, holy symbols, and focuses are going to be confiscated?

If known. Page 9 of the DMG.

"Practitioners of magic are relatively few in number, but they leave evidence of their craft everywhere."

So while you will find magic items, weird zones caused by an ancient magic duel, etc. left around the world, people will often not recognize components, symbols, foci or the class itself. Anything that could be used as a weapon, which would include foci, would probably be taken on that ground, but a pouch with odd bits of stuff in it probably wouldn't.

I would think that in a large city, such knowledge is probably around. But in towns and villages, not so much.

Another thing that strikes me as odd about this spell- why does polymorph use a Wisdom saving throw and not Constitution?

Good question!

 

[Micah Sweet]

I agree with that sentiment, but it's still a limitation on player agency. Especially for those players/DMs here that argue that you can have a 3 intelligence genius.

I don't see a limitation on player agency in this context as a problem.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If polymorph is meant to be used on enemies, then why is there a CR restriction for what you can turn someone into? I wouldn't turn an enemy into a T-Rex or Giant Ape!

Also, for the people who argue about being able to tell friend from foe, I'm curious- if I turn an Orc into a Giant Ape, is he going to immediately start turning on his allies if they're closest?

I'm suddenly imagining, with the shoe on the other foot, a lot of DM's suddenly saying "well the spell doesn't change the Orc's personality, so there's no reason it would attack it's allies".

I would have it attack whatever's closest. PCs aren't soecial in that regard, and neither are NPCS.

 

[Voadam]

I don't think you could turn someone into a dragonfly without the DM's permission- that's not a beast that has game statistics.

Bats, Rats, Raven, Scorpion, Spider all have stats in the MM. Those would work just as well.

Since you can already do something as small as a normal spider or something that flies like a raven a dragonfly seems of a kind.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't see a limitation on player agency in this context as a problem.

I don't, either. When in-fiction circumstances such as charm, dominate, etc. cause loss of agency, that's okay. I'm just arguing that it is in fact a loss of agency as the players choices are forcibly limited.

 

[Maxperson]

Bats, Rats, Raven, Scorpion, Spider all have stats in the MM. Those would work just as well.

It doesn't even matter. If the PC turned his buddy into a dragonfly and I needed stats for it, I would make it up on the spot. Most likely, though, we will never need those stats. I see no good reason to deny the PC the ability to turn things into flies, dragonflies, mice, etc. just because WotC didn't create a stat block for everything minor.

Since you can already do something as small as a normal spider or something that flies like a raven a dragonfly seems of a kind.

There would be differences. The dragonfly would have a higher dex and AC as those suckers are faster and harder to hit than a spider, but mostly they would be the same. Looking at the spider stat block, WotC bungled it pretty badly. A normal spider isn't going to be dragging 30 pounds(30 times strength score divided by 2 for being tiny) worth of stuff. The strength of a spider should be 0. It's higher than 0, but nowhere close to 1. Same with a dragonfly.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Why not? I think it would be fantastic to turn an enemy soldier in the middle of the camp into a t-rex. Think of the damage and confusion it would create!

I imagine that the same DM that makes the PC stupid when polymorphed would then suddenly say the soldier's personality is intact an he's really lazy, so the T-rex goes to sleep or some other BS.