D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Bill Zebub]

It reminds me of the old days, when you didn't dare cast Wish, because not only did the spell age you 5 years, every DM I ever played under went full Monkey's Paw to find a way to screw you over for anything you wanted to use it for

Oh I miss that, too!

 

[Hussar]

Again, I appreciate that is what you want and it would be useful to you and I am sure others as well. However, that amount of rules feels like a straight jacket to me.

Then it's the flip side problem. A spell that grants hundreds of HP at zero cost, typically greatly increased combat output and quite probably considerable movement bonuses should probably be an 7th or 8th level spell. Or to put it another way, a 5th level spell that lets my 9th level wizard make the 9th level fighter look like a complete chump is a problem.

Personally? I'd rather they made it simpler. You gain +2 to hit, +5 to damage and 10 (or maybe a bit more) temp HP/round. Choose a movement type that makes sense and off you go. Flavor what you turn into any way you like. On the flip side, as a spell against baddies, you simply remove all attacks and abilities for the duration, save every round. Reduce speed to 5 feet.

In both cases, the target loses access to class/race abilities for the duration.

There, now we have a nicely balanced spell that isn't ridiculously over powered. Tweak the above numbers to fix it better - that's my back of the envelope numbers. Clean up the text and poof, done.

But, of course, that will never happen because heaven forbid that we actually have clear rules.

 

[Hussar]

"The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

This one seems easy, they have their own mind and self with different ability scores. They are them with different ability scores. They do not have the brain of a T-Rex, just its -4 modifier on int checks.

Investigation and knowledge checks they make will suffer.

As a DM you could rule that how a PC roleplays their character should also change with different mental stat scores, but I wouldn't.

We are not going to agree on this.

Basically, you're saying that gaining the mind of the animal does not in any way change you. I disagree. I see it as completely disorientating, losing language ability, so on and so forth. If you want a spell that grants hundreds of HP and massive attack bonuses, either make it a MUCH higher level or accept some possible downsides.

There's one thing about it. As written, Polymorph will never appear in another D&D game that I run.

 

[James Gasik]

Then it's the flip side problem. A spell that grants hundreds of HP at zero cost, typically greatly increased combat output and quite probably considerable movement bonuses should probably be an 7th or 8th level spell. Or to put it another way, a 5th level spell that lets my 9th level wizard make the 9th level fighter look like a complete chump is a problem.

Personally? I'd rather they made it simpler. You gain +2 to hit, +5 to damage and 10 (or maybe a bit more) temp HP/round. Choose a movement type that makes sense and off you go. Flavor what you turn into any way you like. On the flip side, as a spell against baddies, you simply remove all attacks and abilities for the duration, save every round. Reduce speed to 5 feet.

In both cases, the target loses access to class/race abilities for the duration.

There, now we have a nicely balanced spell that isn't ridiculously over powered. Tweak the above numbers to fix it better - that's my back of the envelope numbers. Clean up the text and poof, done.

But, of course, that will never happen because heaven forbid that we actually have clear rules.

Like, say, Tenser's Transformation?

 

[Voadam]

We are not going to agree on this.

Probably not.

Basically, you're saying that gaining the mind of the animal does not in any way change you.

I am saying the spell text focuses on the target changing into a new form and gaining the game statistics of the new form with specific drawbacks specified while explicitly retaining its personality.

"This spell transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form."

I do not take this to be "gain the mind of the new form and roleplay as that creature except with vestigal alignment and personality traits" instead of just "play the same character in a new form with different stats."

I disagree. I see it as completely disorientating, losing language ability, so on and so forth. If you want a spell that grants hundreds of HP and massive attack bonuses, either make it a MUCH higher level or accept some possible downsides.

Tyrannosaurus Rex has 136 hp and +10 attack bonus. Being the highest CR beast in the MM at CR 8 that is fairly top of the line for a beast.

It also has an AC of 13.

The spell as written already specifies some possible downsides.

"The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech."

"The target's gear melds into the new form. The creature can't activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from any of its equipment."

I too see it as causing a loss of language ability, but I don't see it as inducing total disorientation. Total disorientation I would expect to be mechanically represented by being stunned or some such.

 

[Maxperson]

No, let the player roleplay the intelligence of the creature the polymorph into.

I agree with that sentiment, but it's still a limitation on player agency. Especially for those players/DMs here that argue that you can have a 3 intelligence genius.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, pretty much. You get turned into a t-rex, you have the intelligence of a t-rex, you act like a t-rex. Make sure you're pointed at the enemy!

Not exactly. The spell specifically says you retain your personality, so the peace loving cleric that gets changed isn't going to go rushing off to eat anyone, even if it's not smart enough to discern much difference between the two legs with pig heads and the two legs with pointed ears. The irritable violent barbarian on the other hand should perhaps not be chosen as a target for the spell.

 

[Maxperson]

Or D&D takes swing number 500 at Polymorph and, as usual, crack the catcher in the skull with the bat while trying.

I think the 'this spell literally just makes you a determent to you and the party's goals' is like... third worst in the long line of polymorph revamps.

I think it's primarily intended to be used on enemies. If you want to use it on friends, buyer beware.

 

[Maxperson]

Honestly, if you make polymorph turn you stupid and dangerous, why not just say it can't be cast on allies instead of this 'malevolent djinn' routine?

Because there are many corner case scenarios where it will still be useful on an ally. Say everyone is in jail. Cast it on the cleric and turn him into a dragonfly. When the dumb insect invariably flies out of the cell through either the bars to the rest of the jail or the small window bars, stop concentrating and watch him tumble a few feet to freedom where he can help the rest of you escape.

 

[James Gasik]

I think it's primarily intended to be used on enemies. If you want to use it on friends, buyer beware.

If polymorph is meant to be used on enemies, then why is there a CR restriction for what you can turn someone into? I wouldn't turn an enemy into a T-Rex or Giant Ape!

Also, for the people who argue about being able to tell friend from foe, I'm curious- if I turn an Orc into a Giant Ape, is he going to immediately start turning on his allies if they're closest?

I'm suddenly imagining, with the shoe on the other foot, a lot of DM's suddenly saying "well the spell doesn't change the Orc's personality, so there's no reason it would attack it's allies".