Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[Velderan]

So while putting together some notes for my table, I came across this info in the 2E Tales of the Lance boxed set that I thought might be of interest to the conversation here regarding the Cataclysm. In the timeline, it has the following with things of note in bold:

118 PC Proclamation of Manifest Virtue. The Kingpriest declared that-Evil in the world was an affront to both gods and mortals. A rigid list of evil acts was created and those guilty of offenses faced execution or duty in the gladiatorial arena. Priests of lstar began to lose access to high-level spells. These priests became the Kingpriest’s enforcement squad.

80-20 PC Dominance of lstar Clergy. lstar claimed itself the center of religion, and all aspects of lstarian life required the approval of the priesthood. While the status of lstarian clergy rose, wizards were hunted as ungodly and uncontrolled. The priesthood lost all of its miraculous abilities.

19 PC Siege on Sorcery. Urged on by the Kingpriest, the people of Krynn laid siege to the Towers of High Sorcery in the Lost Battles. Two of the towers nearly fell into the hands of the uninitiated. Unwilling that novices should unleash the fury of magic, mages destroyed the two towers. Fearful of rampant, unordered magic wielders that might arise if all five towers were destroyed, the Kingpriest granted the mages safe passage to exile if they left the remaining towers intact. The Kingpriest took the Tower of lstar for his abode.

0 Cataclysm. The Kingpriest tried to elevate himself to godhood and command the other gods. He used their gifts to the world to control them. The gods were wrathful. True priests disappeared from the world.

It clearly shows that the gods DID remove the ability of the Kingpriest (and his followers) to use divine magic. Magic was also a gift of the gods, so with the Kingpriest residing in a Tower of High Sorcery, it stands to reason he used some powerful magic to somehow try to bind the gods and them tossing a mountain at the world was a last ditch attempt to stop the Kingpriest. I don't like using novels as source material since there's a lot more out there to be familiar with and some of it conflicts with other printed material, but I seem to recall in one of the Legends books when Caramon (or was it Crysania?) sees the Kingpriest, he is revealed to be a paranoid, scared man that is using illusion magic to project an appearance of a calm, powerful person so that supports him not using divine magic at this point and instead being an arcane caster.

I don't know that this explanation makes the Cataclysm less of an issue for those who see issues with it, but it does put a bit of a different spin on it from what people have discussed here imo.

 

[Faolyn]

It clearly shows that the gods DID remove the ability of the Kingpriest (and his followers) to use divine magic.

From what I've read, they didn't remove the magic--they actually removed the priests, who went to another plane or something. Which actually is kind of worse, since they both dropped a nuke on the population and took away people who would, most likely, have some mundane healing and counseling and leadership abilities. Or optionally, the priests chose to leave rather than tend to their flocks, which is not-nice of them.

 

[Velderan]

From what I've read, they didn't remove the magic--they actually removed the priests, who went to another plane or something. Which actually is kind of worse, since they both dropped a nuke on the population and took away people who would, most likely, have some mundane healing and counseling and leadership abilities. Or optionally, the priests chose to leave rather than tend to their flocks, which is not-nice of them.

Both happened according to what I posted from the TotL set:

0 Cataclysm. The Kingpriest tried to elevate himself to godhood and command the other gods. He used their gifts to the world to control them. The gods were wrathful. True priests disappeared from the world.

I guess the logic is they allowed those who remained faithful and did not enable the Kingpriest to become so full of himself that he thought becoming a god was an option? In the thirteen days prior to the Cataclysm, they gave warning signs that allowed mortals a chance to change from their path and in their weakened state, the gods were unable to spare everyone. There is a bit of conflicting info though, because the timeline also specifics that elves were disgusted with the Kingpriest much earlier:

250-100 PC Corruption of Justice—Elves Shun. lstar began to repress independence and anyone who did not agree with the policies and divinity of the Kingpriest. The elves, reaching a breaking point in their disgust with the arrogance of humans, withdrew into their forests and barred commerce with the outside world.

In the grand scheme of things, Qualinesti and Silvanesti were spared the worst of the Cataclsym so I guess that could be looked at as the difference? Ultimately, it was just a storyline item to setup the modules/books which it did so I wouldn't expect a longer explanation of everything.

 

[Faolyn]

Both happened according to what I posted from the TotL set:


I guess the logic is they allowed those who remained faithful and did not enable the Kingpriest to become so full of himself that he thought becoming a god was an option? In the thirteen days prior to the Cataclysm, they gave warning signs that allowed mortals a chance to change from their path and in their weakened state, the gods were unable to spare everyone. There is a bit of conflicting info though, because the timeline also specifics that elves were disgusted with the Kingpriest much earlier:

Yeah, but have you seen those warning signs? Storms, frightened kender, trees weeping blood, stuff like that. There's absolutely nothing there that would actually tell a mortal what they were supposed to do, nor was there anything there that would even suggest that a good god was responsible. And the definition of a "true" priest is a meta-definition that the actual people living in the setting wouldn't know.

Again, this is a problem with trying to make a game and a novel mesh. If this were purely books, it'd be fine. Still crappy, but fine. But the gods were literally said to be 30th+ level clerics or magic-users and the like and are supposed to be Good in a game where the rules state a paladin would fall if they adventured with a thief--and we're supposed to say that it makes sense? They couldn't spend their spell slots on casting a bunch of magic mouths and have them say "Kingpriest, The Gods Command You To Stop Your Actions Because It Will Damage The World And We Will Have To Destroy You If You Continue" (25 words!) and then throw a bunch of lightning bolts at him if/when he didn't stop?

Because they could have done that. Paladine was a 30th-level cleric, 30th-level magic user. Gilean was 40th-level in each of those classes.
Instead, they performed a bunch of random actions in random places and expected people to understand exactly what they meant. Seriously: if flame burns black in one part of the world and animals rampage in another part of the world, and volcanoes erupt in a third part of the world--what are you, average citizen, supposed to think? Heck, what you you, high-level magic user, supposed to think? It's no wonder that the Kingpriest thought these were signs that the Evil gods were against him. They're evil signs!

 

[Velderan]

They couldn't spend their spell slots on casting a bunch of magic mouths and have them say "Kingpriest, The Gods Command You To Stop Your Actions Because It Will Damage The World And We Will Have To Destroy You If You Continue" (25 words!) and then throw a bunch of lightning bolts at him if/when he didn't stop?

By that logic, Paladine (according to his 1E stat block for his avatar) could have just swung once at the Kingpriest and 1 hit for 1-1000 damage would have likely killed the 15th level cleric Kingpriest with 75 hp. Most if not all of the sourcebooks released for 1E, 2E, and 3E have a bit about the gods understanding the need for free will with it not really explaining what happens if that were taken away. Destruction of the world? That's possible since free will was one of the 3 gifts given by the gods at creation, which makes the Cataclysm seem like a better option than outright destruction of the world and everyone in it.

Why give Soth the chance to avert the Cataclysm if the gods could just do it themselves? They clearly couldn't because the stuff I quoted in previous posts say they were limited in what they could do so safe to say they couldn't do anything different in their weakened state.

Without them releasing a Cataclysm sourcebook to give detailed mechanics on everything, the info they have provided is generally vague enough that it could be interpreted to give enough of an explanation for a background storyline for something that the players in the current War of the Lance age can't affect change on. It really doesn't need to be different unless you're planning to run a campaign set in the year 1 PC and theme your campaign around the events leading up to it (which actually sounds pretty fun).

 

[Faolyn]

By that logic, Paladine (according to his 1E stat block for his avatar) could have just swung once at the Kingpriest and 1 hit for 1-1000 damage would have likely killed the 15th level cleric Kingpriest with 75 hp. Most if not all of the sourcebooks released for 1E, 2E, and 3E have a bit about the gods understanding the need for free will with it not really explaining what happens if that were taken away. Destruction of the world? That's possible since free will was one of the 3 gifts given by the gods at creation, which makes the Cataclysm seem like a better option than outright destruction of the world and everyone in it.

They're fictional characters. They don't have free will. They only have author's fiat.

But my point is, the gods of Good could have done basically anything other than genocide and we wouldn't be having this argument.

Why give Soth the chance to avert the Cataclysm if the gods could just do it themselves? They clearly couldn't because the stuff I quoted in previous posts say they were limited in what they could do so safe to say they couldn't do anything different in their weakened state.

Because author's fiat. The writers anted to claim that the gods both had the power to perform world-shaking events like moving hundreds or thousands of clerics to a different plane of existence but were also incapable of sending a clear sign to someone to tell him to stop.

The stuff with Soth is actually the most logical thing in there because at least it was a human with human foibles being stupid and selfish.

Without them releasing a Cataclysm sourcebook to give detailed mechanics on everything, the info they have provided is generally vague enough that it could be interpreted to give enough of an explanation for a background storyline for something that the players in the current War of the Lance age can't affect change on. It really doesn't need to be different unless you're planning to run a campaign set in the year 1 PC and theme your campaign around the events leading up to it (which actually sounds pretty fun).

I just don't think it stands up. Not without massive rewrites to the official story like "For reasons unknown to the populace, the gods simply vanished one day. Their clerics lost all of their powers. X years later, they returned." And then maybe having a sidebar that suggests DMs can come up with a reason for it, with a couple of possibilities listed--like what they did with the Dark Powers in VGR. That book suggests that the Dark Powers are the vestiges of evil gods, but it's written as an option to consider, not as a fact.

One of the suggestions in a Dragonlance book could be that the kingpriest was so horrible they turned their back on the entire population. Another suggestion could be that the kingpriest (or Takhesis, perhaps) managed to banish all the gods and it took them this long to fight their way back. Then it's up to the individual DM as to what they want to do.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'm not really sure why we even need that; or even any clear explanation for the Cataclysm.

Big rock hit world, break things. Gods can't contact world. Petty goth god first to get a good wifi connection, starts stirring crap.

 

[Velderan]

They're fictional characters. They don't have free will. They only have author's fiat.

But my point is, the gods of Good could have done basically anything other than genocide and we wouldn't be having this argument.

Argument's a strong word, I think this is just a healthy debate. I think despite a difference of opinion, we've remained civil and I look forward to discussing other RPG topics. I think this one is a just an agree to disagree thing and we move on at this point.

 

[DarkCrisis]

They're fictional characters. They don't have free will. They only have author's fiat.

But my point is, the gods of Good could have done basically anything other than genocide and we wouldn't be having this argument.


Because author's fiat. The writers anted to claim that the gods both had the power to perform world-shaking events like moving hundreds or thousands of clerics to a different plane of existence but were also incapable of sending a clear sign to someone to tell him to stop.

The stuff with Soth is actually the most logical thing in there because at least it was a human with human foibles being stupid and selfish.


I just don't think it stands up. Not without massive rewrites to the official story like "For reasons unknown to the populace, the gods simply vanished one day. Their clerics lost all of their powers. X years later, they returned." And then maybe having a sidebar that suggests DMs can come up with a reason for it, with a couple of possibilities listed--like what they did with the Dark Powers in VGR. That book suggests that the Dark Powers are the vestiges of evil gods, but it's written as an option to consider, not as a fact.

One of the suggestions in a Dragonlance book could be that the kingpriest was so horrible they turned their back on the entire population. Another suggestion could be that the kingpriest (or Takhesis, perhaps) managed to banish all the gods and it took them this long to fight their way back. Then it's up to the individual DM as to what they want to do.

Why doesn't Superman just fix everything? Because it would be a pretty boring story if the Gods just hopped down and fixed everything all the time. Helps go against that Free Will mortals are supposed to have.

Countless versions of this tale and mythological gods through out history but Krynn's gods get put under the microscope.

I honestly question if people have imaginations anymore. Do we really need hard science to explain Superman's powers or can we just take it on storytelling and imagination that yes he can in fact fly?

 

[AnotherGuy]

But my point is, the gods of Good could have done basically anything other than genocide and we wouldn't be having this argument.

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned but what if the only way for the gods of Good to interfere (in the material plane) was with the blessing of the other gods. Perhaps the gods of Evil forced the gods of Good into this position. i.e. If the gods of Good did not agree to the Evil gods' terms, the Kingpriest would have become a god. What if this was the lesser evil than have another evil god in the DL pantheon.