D&D General D&D, magic, and the mundane medieval

[Oofta]

this smacks of BS gate keeping "your too dumb to learn what I know"
it may come easier to some and harder to others (and to be fair a lot of people give up on hard things) but I doubt short of a major mental issue there is any thing that CAN be taught that someone can't learn.

you mean those people who put there effort elsewhere (maybe even place that it came easier)

Again, unless you have a physical (as opposed to above mental one) condition yeah if you can do it you can push and learn (and again some people it comes easier for and some harder) to do anything.

so in your mind if 10 kids decided they want to go to school to be surgeons there is some limit, some 'only some of them can learn this skill' built into human minds? How do you test for this? How do we KNOW who can't be a ______?

in fantasy I can see needing inborn magic (in 2e for years we did that and even now that is sorcerer) but in real life I can't believe that people think there is a way to be born to be a surgeon or physics major...

I'm speaking from experience. I've always been quite successful at software development, coding faster, being able to learn new technologies more quickly and developing more stable code while also balancing often conflicting requirements that seem to come up. But I could never be a quantum physicist. It's not a lack of intelligence, my brain just doesn't work that way. Same way that games that require abstract thinking and analysis are easy for me (so much so that my family refused to play some games with me because I always won) but I will never be any good at chess no matter how many tutorial programs I get.

It's easy to imagine that there is a fundamental minimum competency to become a wizard. Different people have different strengths, everyone has weaknesses. One of my strengths is comprehension and analysis but a weakness is advanced math. Could I be a surgeon? Probably. Never really wanted. A physicist? Nope. I don't see an issue with acknowledging limitations. We all have them.

But this is off topic. If you want anyone with money and resources the option to become a wizard, go for it.

 

[pemerton]

The D&D magic system was invented as a game-play tool, a supplement to Chainmail intended to support a certain style of adventure-focused, combined arms team-based, RPGing.

It's well known that it has a tendency to break even when modest variations of the original context are introduced, like low-encounter-density wilderness exploration.

Trying to treat it as a "real" part of the imagined world and then extrapolate out social and economic impacts doesn't seem to me to make sense. I mean, of course people can make up whatever fantasy stories they want, but trying to frame them as extrapolations or simulations doesn't seem very credible.

(I mean, all the economist in our real world are struggling at the moment even to extrapolate the comparatively modest changes that might flow from the current spike in inflation.)

 

[J.Quondam]

wait we have gone from "not everyone can be a doctor" to "not all doctors can share there knowledge"?

Yes. "Teaching" is a skill like any other, and not everyone is cut out to do it. This isn't a grand revelation; it's just a fact of life.
What that has to do with medieval-style D&D, though, I'm admittedly less certain.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm speaking from experience. I've always been quite successful at software development, coding faster, being able to learn new technologies more quickly and developing more stable code while also balancing often conflicting requirements that seem to come up. But I could never be a quantum physicist. It's not a lack of intelligence, my brain just doesn't work that way.

You can train your brain to work other ways. I am not saying it's easy but if back years ago when you went to school and found you had a knack for codeing you decided you WANTED to be a quantum physicist and put in the work and the hours you COULD be one... maybe you would not be as good at it as you are codeing... but even then no way to know

Same way that games that require abstract thinking and analysis are easy for me (so much so that my family refused to play some games with me because I always won) but I will never be any good at chess no matter how many tutorial programs I get.

again somethings come easy some take hard work and effort...

It's easy to imagine that there is a fundamental minimum competency to become a wizard. Different people have different strengths, everyone has weaknesses. One of my strengths is comprehension and analysis but a weakness is advanced math. Could I be a surgeon? Probably. Never really wanted. A physicist? Nope. I don't see an issue with acknowledging limitations. We all have them.

But this is off topic. If you want anyone with money and resources the option to become a wizard, go for it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes. "Teaching" is a skill like any other, and not everyone is cut out to do it. This isn't a grand revelation; it's just a fact of life.
What that has to do with medieval-style D&D, though, I'm admittedly less certain.

it's a skill that some have an aptitude for, but I can't imagine (again assuming no mental issue) why someone that WANTED to teach could not work hard and be an okayish one even if they are never going to be the best.

 

[J.Quondam]

it's a skill that some have an aptitude for, but I can't imagine (again assuming no mental issue) why someone that WANTED to teach could not work hard and be an okayish one even if they are never going to be the best.

Yes? I'm not sure why exactly you're arguing this. We seem to be in agreement.

 

[cbwjm]

Not specifically. It is an explanation some people use as to why everyone can't use magic. You need some inborn talent to be a magician, but if it is part of your being, then you don't need any instruction (sorcerer).

This is how I run things. Other than warlocks who have arcane power given to them, others need a spark of magic to master arcane magic. Divine/Primal magic is also granted in my games so no need to have the spark, but you are beholden to a higher/other power. This explanation has been used in the dnd game in the past, though I only know of a couple of supplements from 2e/BECMI that mention it. It explains why not every man and his dog can learn magic.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Trying to treat it as a "real" part of the imagined world and then extrapolate out social and economic impacts doesn't seem to me to make sense. I mean, of course people can make up whatever fantasy stories they want, but trying to frame them as extrapolations or simulations doesn't seem very credible.

It makes sense to me. Worldbuilding is one of the ways I have fun with the game.
We have different objectives I think. Or, rather, different paths to similar goals.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Its a game about heroes fighting monsters, not a medieval times simulator.

But thinking of the consequences of magic in the time period that inspired the main D&D worlds is certainly a valid and worthwhile discussion to have.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Okay, first- thanks for the reference! I've been looking for something beyond what I had, ....

Mold earth: I thought that was a nice five cubic feet, not a five foot cube. That cantrip was written by someone who never held a shovel before.

And anyone can learn it, just investing a feat at first level. Magic is common-place to the point of triviality. Wow. Interesting to think about, and extrapolate from, but I don't think I would want to run a game with these assumptions.

kigmatzomat, thanks very much for your posts!

I spent 2 years as a construction estimator; I knew there was a standard rate for moving dirt by hand, I just had to find it.

The 5ft cube is the minimal size to be useful for combat as it gives you cover. It seems so minor in combat that it is very easy to under estimate Mold Earth. Big mistake.

I use it constantly. Did your battlemaster disarm someone? Bury their weapon 5ft deep. Did someone put up a Wall spell? Tunnel under it. Need cover for archers or spellcasters? Throw up a mini-wall with a 5ft pit to the side to cut flanking.

After a fight, need to keep a captured foe from escaping? Sink them waist deep in soil. Want to avoid drawing predators? Bury the bodies. Want to obscure tracks? Do a pattern then erase it (a tracker can tell something happened but no idea what).