• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D General D&D, magic, and the mundane medieval

Status
Not open for further replies.

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
As a software developer I beg to differ. Some people just don't "get" how to code anything more than the simplest macros. Even some of the smartest people in the world struggle with the concepts of quantum physics. To say that some would make a better Olympic athlete is kind of like saying that if you can crawl you could run the hundred yard dash. Technically true but in an entirely different realm of capability.

I assume there needs to be some innate talent and drive to become a wizard, that there's a barrier to entry of natural aptitude in addition to opportunity to learn in both having a teacher and the time. You can't just pick up a book one day and decide to be a surgeon. Well, you could, but it's doubtful many of your patients would survive.

Do what makes sense for your world because it's all make believe but not having a passion for your career doesn't equate to not having the innate abilities to master the fundamentals.
I’ve never met a passionate person who works hard at a thing and who also never gets past the very basics, barring cognitive disability.

It just takes some folks longer, and some people have only fairly mild interest, not passion or dedication.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
um I don't know if this is all true... sure some would make a BETTER quantum physicist or a BETTER Olympic athlete, but I can't believe that someone born with a knack for math and theory, that is really smart and reads and retains information couldn't train to be a good athlete instead of going into physics

As one of the actual quantum physicists in the room...

Even if I started at a young age, there are few sports that I could have done at a professional level. Those few things I am physically suited for, I have so little enthusiasm for that we could not expect me to have ever gotten any good at them.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
As one of the actual quantum physicists in the room...

Even if I started at a young age, there are few sports that I could have done at a professional level. Those few things I am physically suited for, I have so little enthusiasm for that we could not expect me to have ever gotten any good at them.
As someone who eschewed sports from about 10 to about 23 years old, and have solid physical reasons to avoid most sports, I really think that someone with the same body as me, or any other basically able-bodied person, but with the level of interest in basketball or whatever that I’ve always had in linguistics and in systems like complex games and computers, and solid opportunities to regularly practice, would eventually become a competent athlete.

@thread:

Now, if being even a level 1 wizard, or even just having the equivalent of a level 1 feat that grants some small magic comparable to what elves and gnomes have naturally, requires genius aptitude, such that only the Kobe and Magic Johnson and comparable ballers of magic (and yes, athletes at that level are geniuses just as creatives and scientists at a comparable level are) can even learn the basics, then sure it will be rare.

You won’t have 1 per village, or even reliably have 1 per broad cultural region. You may not even have enough for the normal assumptions of how a wizard learns their craft to make any sense. Every wizard PC, and wizard NPC above CR 3 or so, is their generation’s Da Vinci, or at least it’s Wayne Gretzky, far surpassing their teachers, peers, and even most of whoever they looked up to in the “poster on the bedroom wall” sort of admiration. Every Wizard should be assumed to have invented most of their spells after the first few levels, at that point.

But then in that case, where do Eldritch knights, multiclassed wizards, feat-mages, and people with Ritual Caster fit in the equation?
 

pemerton

Legend
It makes sense to me. Worldbuilding is one of the ways I have fun with the game.
We have different objectives I think. Or, rather, different paths to similar goals.
As I said, people can make up whatever they want.

But I don't think it can be extrapolation. I mean, what difference would the application of curative magic make to the infant mortality rate? And how would that then affect the labour market? And how, in turn, would that affect military policy and related politics? No one can tell.

But thinking of the consequences of magic in the time period that inspired the main D&D worlds is certainly a valid and worthwhile discussion to have.
I would say: we can talk about what consequences we would like to imagine. But we can't talk about working out what the consequences would be.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
As I said, people can make up whatever they want.

But I don't think it can be extrapolation. I mean, what difference would the application of curative magic make to the infant mortality rate? And how would that then affect the labour market? And how, in turn, would that affect military policy and related politics? No one can tell.
We can extrapolate from information gleaned from several thousand years of recorded history and comparisons of access to different knowledge and tech in a given time, including the current era, to ask, “what sorts of changes tend to occur when the infant mortality rate is reliably low for several generations in a culture?” And we can absolutely extrapolate from the answers to those questions.
 

Spinning off a bit from some discussion in the Dragonlance thread.

D&D derives a lot of its aesthetic and assumed setting from the medieval to renaissance period in Europe. I've just been thinking about some of the historical factors that were enormously prominent, everyday, and important in the real world, but which D&D either neglects completely, or just casually makes assumptions about without really thinking about how the everyday presence of magic and the verifiable existence of a polytheistic pantheon of gods would affect it.

Tax, for instance. It was probably the cause of the majority of medieval wars and uprisings that weren't caused by religious differences. When was the last time your PCs paid taxes? Who does pay the tax in your campaign world? How does money get raised to build castles, city walls, sewers, and roads, or to pay soldiers and bureaucrats? Higher-level PCs are some of the richest people in a campaign setting (other than dragons...) - if they're not paying tax, who is?

Monarchy. Historically, monarchies almost always drew their legitimacy from the endorsement of the Church, who spoke for god. Divine Right of Kings and all that. Are your D&D campaign world monarchies divinely endorsed? If so, by which gods? What do the residents of the kingdom who worship other gods think of this? Does the endorsing god ever revoke their endorsement when a monarch goes off the rails, or starts worshipping something else, and if so, what happens then? If the monarchy is not tied to religion, where does it draw its legitimacy from? And the same with all the lesser aristocracy further down the chain.

Land. Who owns it? Who decides who owns it? There's a lot of Generic Wilderness in most D&D settings, in your setting is this on nominally owned by someone and it's just too monster-haunted for them to use, or is it legitimately unclaimed? Do you have a squattocracy of powerful adventurers picking bits of land out that they like, slaying the monstrous inhabitants and setting up domains of their own regardless of who owns the title in a dusty ledger hundreds of miles away? And even in more rural and tamed areas, or in cities - who owns the land? Is your average farmer or shopkeeper a yeoman who owns a small holding of their own, or are they tenants paying rent to a noble or landlord? And in a world of dungeons and underdarks and subterranean dwarven cities how deep does title run?

Spell lists. Most D&D spells are intended for adventurers obviously, because that's what the game is about. But that leaves a lot of conceptual space for spells that'd be incredibly important in the non-adventuring world. The Ceremony spell is a nice gesture in this direction, and Plant Growth has some great agricultural utility, but there's some fairly obvious gaps. Does your world have people researching/casting spells like Ease Childbirth, or Improve Dwelling, or Increase Fertility, or Accelerate Fermentation, or Grind Grain, or Contraception, or Permanent Dye? If not, why not? Are there any other obvious utility spells that a pre-modern society would have developed that DON'T centre around bashing monsters?

Punishment. Pre-modern societies were very big on corporal punishment. Floggings, hard labor, and mutilations and so on. There's some fairly obvious Rule Zero reasons that this stuff wouldn't be welcome at a lot of tables, but in that case, how do minor crimes get punished? Corporal punishment works because people are afraid of pain and injury, but this is D&D, when most injuries disappear after a good night's sleep and pain (or deprivation, or discomfort, or boredom, or bad food) only matters if you choose to roleplay it. What sort of punishments do your rulers apply? Are there magical options - application of spells like geas?

Social mobility. Ancestry and birth were historically very important. Even if you were rich and successful, if you were low-born you could almost never truly achieve equality of social status with those who were born noble, or high-caste, or royal. How tightly do the nobility guard their class integrity in your world? Can your successful adventurers purchase a title, or can their wealth open doors into high society and will they be genuinely accepted there? Can the commoner hero marry the princess without comment, revolution, or ostracism? But if there's no meaningful dividing lines between noble and commoner, what does being a noble even mean?
For a more medieval D&D, Greyhawk is a better fit than the assumed default of Forgotten Realms.

My Greyhawk campaigns have all of what you mention except variant spells. In Sunday’s game, the elf bard figured out the reeve of the village they’re in has been embezzling taxes and rent due to the absentee landlord, and proved it with the lord’s permission by checking the the accounting records and having a legal case - one PC is a wizard with Skill Points in Porfession: Attorney (it’s a 3.5e campaign).

Beyond D&D, Harn is quite medieval and many people use the setting but with whatever RPG rules they like.

And Raging Swan press makes great medieval-feel D&D materials - my crooked Mayor idea was from them.
 
Last edited:

reelo

Hero
Beyond D&D, Harn is quite medieval and many people use the setting but with whatever RPG rules they like.

Hârn is truly astonishing and exceptionally well-made. The only things I've never truly been able to "grok" yet are its religion and magic systems.
But in terms of sheer medievalism, really nothing comes close to Hârn.
 

Hussar

Legend
There’s also the other side of things that no one ever seems to take into account - the monsters.

So many monsters would radically change the world. Fire beetles are a renewable light source that cannot burn your house down.

Never minding flying mounts.

An ogre would be able to do unbelievable amounts of work.

The list is enormous.
 


reelo

Hero
There’s also the other side of things that no one ever seems to take into account - the monsters.

So many monsters would radically change the world. Fire beetles are a renewable light source that cannot burn your house down.

Never minding flying mounts.

An ogre would be able to do unbelievable amounts of work.

The list is enormous.
This is a good and important point.
For myself —and I'm only speaking for myself here!— I want a (pseudo-)historic "medieval" setting because that's what I enjoy most, so the fantastic elements (magic, monsters, even other races of humanoids) HAVE to be rare/dangerous/untameable/antagonistic and cannot really be used to contribute to human society in a meaningful way, because the implication would be a less historic, less medieval setting.
I don't begrudge anyone going all out and inventing a setting that has "medieval" as a mere starting-point and then changes it to accomodate for all the fantastical elements, but I feel the end-result will always be (knowingly or unknowingly) a form of "magic as technology" and give off an almost "modern" feel. It's just not my jam.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top