D&D 5E Combat as war, sport, or ??

[Lanefan]

Because it's like calling every guy Steve just because they share some basic physical similarities. John is Steve, Tim is Steve, Joe is Steve, etc. It would be confusing and nonsensical.

D&D is the stuff that says D&D on the cover. Other works may be D&D derived (True 20, Level Up) or D&D inspired (Conan 2d20, Monsterpunk) but they clearly aren't D&D anymore than John or Tim are named Steve.

Identical twins still have different names. That said, the all-guys-are-Steve piece is a red herring here.

There's D&D - which within itself has a pretty wide variety of stuff included if we look at all the editions put together - and then there's a bunch of other 'adjacent' games and a slew of kitbashed and homebrew systems that used D&D (whatever edition) as the launching point. They're all close enough for rock'n'roll, so just call 'em d&d with small 'd's.

I see the war-v-sport discussion as a) applicable to much more than just combat and b) as edition-agnostic and almost system-agnostic; pretty much any d&d-like system can be run either way, depending what the DM and-or players want to do with it.

That said, some systems and-or editions clearly trend toward one or the other as their default, which serves to turn these discussions into proxy edition wars, which defeats the purpose of having the discussion inthe first place..

 

[Neonchameleon]

I understand that position, but disagree. Level Up is just as much D&D as 3e, or Pathfinder, or Dungeon Crawl Classics. WotC's legal ownership of the name "D&D" is the ONLY thing they have over any 3pp, and it doesn't make them any better than any of them. If a thread just wants to talk about WotC, they should say up front that's all that matters.

And I'd say Level Up is just as much D&D as DCC - in other words they are competing products with D&D. Pathfinder 1e might qualify as D&D given how little it changed - 2e certainly isn't.

As for this thread? It is very much upfront that it is not just about D&D - but about D&D 5e.

Meanwhile to actually be inclusive of your definition it could arguably have used

or even (on this board)

 

[Micah Sweet]

And I'd say Level Up is just as much D&D as DCC - in other words they are competing products with D&D. Pathfinder 1e might qualify as D&D given how little it changed - 2e certainly isn't.

As for this thread? It is very much upfront that it is not just about D&D - but about D&D 5e.

View attachment 266877
Meanwhile to actually be inclusive of your definition it could arguably have used
View attachment 266878
or even (on this board)
View attachment 266879

D&D 5e includes any game based on the 5e rules, originally developed by WotC but now available to a wide variety of content creators, including EN Publishing. If only WotC was allowed in this thread, why hasn't anyone called that out when someone mentions another game? It would be considered off-topic by your definition.

 

[Neonchameleon]

D&D 5e includes any game based on the 5e rules, originally developed by WotC but now available to a wide variety of content creators, including EN Publishing. If only WotC was allowed in this thread, why hasn't anyone called that out when someone mentions another game? It would be considered off-topic by your definition.

Because, in general, the other games are being compared to 5e. 5e is treated as the baseline and why things don't work. "5e does it this way but 2e does it that" is still a statement that is about 5e even if 2e is also mentioned. Likewise it's not remotely offtopic for you to mention ways that Level Up improves on 5e because that's still about 5e and treats 5e as the baseline.

So I can compare and contrast e.g. Blades in the Dark with 5e on a 5e thread without it being remotely off topic because it's still about 5e. What I can't do is say "D&D is a generic name for all RPGs" and then start rambling about Blades in the Dark and get surprised or defensive when it's pointed out, quite rightly, that Blades is not actually D&D.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Good thing D&D is flexible enough to do both, am I right? WOTC can tilt it towards the direction that they believe can serve the gaming population best. Those who disagree or are in the minority can tilt the game towards their personal preference via DM empowerment. Everyone wins!

 

[Gradine]

The problem with this perennial argument, from an outsider's perspective (for whatever that's worth) is that y'all are conflating tonal tools with hardline, mutually exclusive philosophical stances. CaW and CaS aren't binary; they're a spectrum, and what's best for any given combat is a specific, unique, point on that spectrum.

From what I can tell; CaW is a strong spice, best used sparingly for best effect, lest you dull the tastebuds of your table. To strain the metaphor further, CaS, then, is the palette cleanser. You can't turn the stakes to 11 every single moment of every single session. That's a recipe* for burnout.


*pun always intended

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't see D&D as being defined by a legal branding in any circumstance except where I am legally required to do so.

Things have names for a reason. If you say D&D, but your intended meaning is Torg or SWN, any misunderstandings arising thereof are on you.

When my aunt, who knows relatively nothing about RPGs, refers to every RPG as D&D, I follow her meaning because I know that she understands nothing about it.

When someone on a D&D message board says D&D (as opposed to RPG) it is reasonable to believe that they are using the term intentionally. Using D&D as a term for "any RPG with a d20 and stats" is making a choice to obfuscate the conversation for no reason other than because you feel like it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Things have names for a reason. If you say D&D, but your intended meaning is Torg or SWN, any misunderstandings arising thereof are on you.

When my aunt, who knows relatively nothing about RPGs, refers to every RPG as D&D, I follow her meaning because I know that she understands nothing about it.

When someone on a D&D message board says D&D (as opposed to RPG) it is reasonable to believe that they are using the term intentionally. Using D&D as a term for "any RPG with a d20 and stats" is making a choice to obfuscate the conversation for no reason other than because you feel like it.

Well, I'm not the one that said Torg and SWN are D&D. But if someone says D&D on a board (and doesn't specify further), I assume whatever edition that thread is in by category, but also that anything using those basic rules applies. So 5e means any game product primarily using the 5e rules unless told otherwise. I never assume WotC unless I hear WotC, or the comment is clearly referencing a WotC product.

 

[FrogReaver]

Because it's like calling every guy Steve just because they share some basic physical similarities. John is Steve, Tim is Steve, Joe is Steve, etc. It would be confusing and nonsensical.

D&D is the stuff that says D&D on the cover. Other works may be D&D derived (True 20, Level Up) or D&D inspired (Conan 2d20, Monsterpunk) but they clearly aren't D&D anymore than John or Tim are named Steve.

What do you have against Steve

 

[FrogReaver]

Earlier we had talked about difficulty in combat as war and combat as sport and I think some elaboration there is warranted.

1) A DM can crease encounters soo difficult that the only way players can defeat them is by engaging in activities that get referred to as 'combat as war'. Until the players make this adjustment the game may feel overly deadly and possibly even unfun.

2) Players can engage in 'combat as war' activities which will either make the game a cakewalk or force the DM to adapt to their playstyle.

Here's the thing though, fast forward to the end state of the players and GM engaging in the combat as war style and the end state difficulty players face isn't actually harder than what a player can face in a 'combat as sport' style, it's just different, more strategical, less tactical. Most players from my experience prefer D&D with a mix of strategic and tactical play. They want to be heroic and also want to make cool plans to defeat their more powerful foes.