D&D General Do you like LOTS of races/ancestries/whatever? If so, why?

[CreamCloud0]

But it seems to me that the problem isn’t really about NUMBER of races. Let’s assume it’s the beginning of the campaign and you are the DM, and a player comes with a Loxodon monk (to choose a race that doesn’t feature in many settings).

You might say “sorry, I already have 12 races in my campaign world, and I don’t have room for another one”.

If you did what would you respond if the player responded “well, no one is playing Goliaths, why don’t you replace Goliaths with Loxodons?”

You might also say “well, I don’t want to come up with lore and background to fit them in my world”.

If you said that, what would you respond if the player answered “actually, I have detailed ideas about Loxodons, inspired by Tibetan monks. What if they were a race of spiritual and reclusive individuals that resided on mountain peaks?”

The point I’m getting at here is that very often the issue isn’t number of races or difficulty of players accurately portraying alien mindsets, or even world-building, it’s about DMs being resistant to incorporating ideas into “their” world that weren’t authored by them.

Just because a player has an established lore for a species doesn’t mean the DM can just plonk them down into the world and have it fit in perfectly, what if the mountains are already occupied? What is this city’s relationship with the other local settlements? What is their history in this world? Does it fit tonally? How do they sustain their food and supplies in the mountains? And they don’t fit the same niche as the Goliaths and removing them is going to cause even more problems on top of adding loxodons, just because no one was playing one doesn’t mean they don’t otherwise exist in the world.

DMs are typically resistant to other people’s ideas because they’re constructed in isolation of the world rather than to fit in and be part of what already exists.

 

[Xamnam]

Well, to go back to your example (merfolk vs. Tritons vs. Sea elves vs. Water genasi), just because the DM views them as interchangeable, doesn’t mean the player does.

Yeah, I truly don't mean this in a negative way, but while I can see Triton and Merfolk overlapping, considering either of them to be the same fictional concept as Sea Elves or Water Genasi is...well, I just don't get it, personally.

 

[Scribe]

Yeah, I truly don't mean this in a negative way, but while I can see Triton and Merfolk overlapping, considering either of them to be the same fictional concept as Sea Elves or Water Genasi is...well, I just don't get it.

I was thinking on this while walking the dog.

They are not the same, but the issue becomes (for those who lean toward less vs more options) what space do they fill?

If I had an ocean themed game? Yeah, get them all in there, because the differences could matter, those are the civilizations of the ocean, and humans + n, ride on top and sail around.

All the Fey? Well if I was playing a Fey focused game, I would pick one of those Big Guys, and Goblins, and Eladrin, and Fairy (but I would make them Tiny btw, pull your heads out Wizards and make it work) instead of say Halflings, and Goliaths.

The animal races? Those are for a different kind of game as well.

So its not a bad thing to me that all these options exist, its just to me, throwing them all in the pot, ruins the soup.

 

[Minigiant]

Woah! you really are, huh? I mean, I always suspected it... but to finally have confirmation is like mind-blowing...

Just counted

My most developed setting has 25+ races, 20 classes, and 40 countries.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But it seems to me that the problem isn’t really about NUMBER of races. Let’s assume it’s the beginning of the campaign and you are the DM, and a player comes with a Loxodon monk (to choose a race that doesn’t feature in many settings).

You might say “sorry, I already have 12 races in my campaign world, and I don’t have room for another one”.

If you did what would you respond if the player responded “well, no one is playing Goliaths, why don’t you replace Goliaths with Loxodons?”

You might also say “well, I don’t want to come up with lore and background to fit them in my world”.

If you said that, what would you respond if the player answered “actually, I have detailed ideas about Loxodons, inspired by Tibetan monks. What if they were a race of spiritual and reclusive individuals that resided on mountain peaks?”

Well, speaking only for myself of course, if that situation arose and a player had the "detailed ideas" as you suggest, I would probably roll with it.

Especially if loxodons could replace another race that wasn't in use and it fits well with the rest of the world lore.

And as I said upthread the final option for single cases like this is "you came from another world/land/whatever", are unique or maybe a creature of legend--no one has seen your race in centuries (I did this for a player who wanted to play a warforged PC, long "defunct" but revived).

The point I’m getting at here is that very often the issue isn’t number of races or difficulty of players accurately portraying alien mindsets, or even world-building, it’s about DMs being resistant to incorporating ideas into “their” world that weren’t authored by them.

Well, I understand their point (and have put my foot down at times) because they put a lot of work into their world. If the player is so adamant about it they won't have fun, what makes them think the DM will if they let the race in when they don't want to?

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Good for you. I tell such players to find one.

I'm in the game to have fun, too, and if a player wants to play a 6' pink bunny race which I find completely silly and not appropriate for a serious fantasy game, that detracts from my fun.

But there is a wide great area between those extremes. For instance, I like to play yuan-ti. Not exactly standard, but not a pink bunny either

 

[DND_Reborn]

Just counted

My most developed setting has 25+ races, 20 classes, and 40 countries.

Mine has 10 races, 10 classes, and probably 100 or more countries LOL!

But there is a wide great area between those extremes. For instance, I like to play yuan-ti. Not exactly standard, but not a pink bunny either

Sure.

It's just green snaky.

 

[Faolyn]

I'm not quite sure what three or four human species exiting simultaneously is supposed to demonstrate. I think most people who want more limited palette are fine with having four species, it is more than sixty we have a problem with.

It's a big world. Nobody is saying that any particular intelligent species has to have more than a few million people, and probably a lot fewer.

I think the problem is that people assume that there will be hundreds of millions or even a billion or two humans, and similar numbers of every other race as well. Which, no. Of course that's ridiculous. You'd need to have tens of billions of people on a world for that to be the case.

This wikipedia article indicates, in the year 1000 BCE, there was a known population of about 390 million people. This is probably very low. Assume the actual population was closer to 600 million people to cover all those places that lacked record keeping or whose records haven't survived.

Which means you could easily estimate 10 million people of each of 60 different species and it would be a completely reasonable number. And, of course, many of those species are going to be far fewer in number. There's probably a tenth as many elves as humans, for instance. And some of those species may not even be native to the world--some could be from the Feywild (satyrs and centaurs), some could be born to humans instead of being their own species (tieflings, aasimar, and genasi, for instance), and some could actually be the same species, if the DM wants (I personally like to think that goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are a single, highly morphic species).

And what makes that number even more reasonable is that D&D races can live places humans can't. Some of those races are aquatic or live deep underground. Some of them can comfortably live in the arctic or mountain tops or the worst deserts. And since they're all capable of magic, that lets them live in even more places and cuts down on the amount of space needed for food--spells can enhance crops, create water, or take down prey animals too big for arrows and spears. And there's going to be bigger predators (dragons, naturally, but also other monsters, including undead) who can keep the population of sentients down.

And it's entirely reasonable to say that a fantasy world is bigger than Earth, or has more land than Earth.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

When I consider what makes a good DM as a player, allowing whatever race anyone wants is way, way, way down on the list.

That is not what I was asking for

 

[Tonguez]

Sure, but if the world had sea elves, and the player want to play a triton, why not accommodate the player and replace sea elves with tritons?. By your own admission, you feel that the races occupy the same niche.

Also, I choose tritons as an example for a reason: the argument had been made that many races was unrealistic because the would compete among each other and wipe each other out. This argument does not apply to tritons who occupy a different niche than most humanoids.

Tritons to me would be interesting since they can be pitched as variant humans - Aquaman/Namor style Atlanteans. Variant humans with water breathing and an ability to commumicate with fish, who have remained hidden from the surface dwelling civilisations.

Loxodons are a bit more iffy due to their animal-heads, which may not fit the setting. Take Conans Tower of the Elephant for instance - Yag-kosha, the Elephant headed alien is a unique being in the world, though it is the last survivor of what would probably be celestials (aardlings?), some DMs might want to preserve the uniqueness of Yag-Kosha or Ganesha rather than having a community of them ignored in some corner of their world