D&D 1E Why do Wizard hot dogs come in packages of 9, but Cleric buns come in packages of 7?

[Mannahnin]

Apropos of illusions, Dragon Magazine issue #130 (Feb 1988) had a great article called Hold Onto Your Illusions! which gave some nice guidelines and suggestions and a supplemental rule or two to make adjudicating illusions easier.

If anyone's interested in help adjudicating illusions for their games, I definitely recommend looking it up.

 

[James Gasik]

Hey now, don't exaggerate. Psionic enchantments are only 10th level spells.

I have Dragon Kings, Tome of Magic with Quest spells, and the Role Aids Arch Magic which has flat out full on 10th level spells, and the Wizard's Spell Compendiums which include the dark sun stuff and information on mythal magic.

You have to go to ancient Netheril to get the official AD&D level 11 Mavin's World Weave, Level 11 Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere, and the level 12 Karsus's Avatar spells. In world for the Forgotten Realms Karsus's avatar from the netheril age killed Mystril, caused a magical apocalypse, and the new goddess of magic Mystra changed the weave so mortal casters could only access up to level 9 spells from then on.

I am not that familiar with a lot of Larloch's specifics in the realms, he might have some special stuff too.

Edit - The Role Aids archmagic had AD&D spells up to 15th level such as greater apocalypse.

Ah yes, I forgot about the ancient Netheril supplements. I have all those same books, including whichever one has Elven High Magics (whichever one it was, Evermeet, Myth Drannor, or Cormanthor). Arch-Magic, in particular, is a favorite of mine, even if it's not "official" content.

 

[Voadam]

Ah yes, I forgot about the ancient Netheril supplements. I have all those same books, including whichever one has Elven High Magics (whichever one it was, Evermeet, Myth Drannor, or Cormanthor). Arch-Magic, in particular, is a favorite of mine, even if it's not "official" content.

Mayfair Games had a lot of great AD&D stuff. I particularly enjoyed their Demons line, Archmagic, their monster books, and a number of their general sourcebooks. I really wish WotC would take the old ones and put them out as PDFs instead of continuing the TSR "bury them after acquisition" strategy.

 

[James Gasik]

Mayfair Games had a lot of great AD&D stuff. I particularly enjoyed their Demons line, Archmagic, their monster books, and a number of their general sourcebooks. I really wish WotC would take the old ones and put them out as PDFs instead of continuing the TSR "bury them after acquisition" strategy.

Yeah, it would be nice to see things like Fantastic Treasures be readily available.

 

[Nikosandros]

The 1e Illusionist's design is insanely bizarre, but I don't know anyone who ever played one. I'm curious what the play experience was like, though I imagine, like illusion spells throughout the game's history, it really comes down to your DM (Illusions being one of the most "Mother May I" elements in the game).

In my longest running campaign there was an illusionist and we reached high levels. He was quite powerful . I'm currently playing at 10th level illusionist in a PBEM and I can't complain. The spells are quite good and the progression is faster than a MU.

 

[James Gasik]

In my longest running campaign there was an illusionist and we reached high levels. He was quite powerful . I'm currently playing at 10th level illusionist in a PBEM and I can't complain. The spells are quite good and the progression is faster than a MU.

Thanks for the information, it's good to have data on these things- a lot of the classes people like to complain about, if you investigate, you find out weren't played for very long. At least, in my experience- I saw a lot of bothersome Cavaliers and Barbarians, but never any high level Cavaliers or Paladins!

The extreme table variance on illusion spells still scares me away from playing one, even though, objectively, playing an illusionist (or even an enchanter!) sounds like it should be fun.

 

[Nikosandros]

It is fun, but it's true that illusions require a bit of talk between the player and the DM to make sure that everyone is on the same page.

 

[Lanefan]

See this is what I mean though. So many DM's I've played with have this innate knee-jerk reaction to illusion spells. Not the ones that are hard to argue with, like mirror image or invisibility, but things like phantasmal force or minor illusion; any time a player gets creative, there's this moment where the DM crosses their eyes, either not happy about their enemy being "tricked", or not wanting to let the player get away with too much.

Illusions have also been nerfed hard in the more recent editions, to the point where I almost wonder whether they'd have preferred to get rid of them entirely but didn't only because of tradition. For me, playing an Illusionist in 5e would be nothing more than an exercise in frustration.

Though in fairness, on the flipside, I've noticed a lot of players who use illusion spells always want to push the envelop a little far as well, summoning demon princes out of thin air when a mere ogre would do the trick.

That's where the DM has to think about both a) what's believable and b) the capabilities of the Illusionist.

I mean, sure, I could cast an illusion of a demon prince walking into the room, but three big factors would work against me. 1) Has anyone in the room ever seen a demon prince or know what one is, 'cause if not it's just gonna look like some weird monster to them. 2) Does a demon prince appearing make the least bit of sense in the surroundings, 'cause if not the viewers are liable to be skeptical. 3) Do I as caster have the first clue about how to operate a demon prince and make its actions believable, 'cause if not this could become comedy hour real quick.

An Ogre, however, is familiar to many (almost certainly including me, the caster); and though by no means universal, the appearance of one is at least vaguely plausible in a wide variety of situations and surroundings.

 

[Orius]

The Role Aids archmagic had AD&D spells up to 15th level such as greater apocalypse.

Meh, Role-Aids. If you want ridiculously overpowered stuff, do it right. Use Arduin.

 

[Voadam]

Meh, Role-Aids. If you want ridiculously overpowered stuff, do it right. Use Arduin.

If you want ridiculously underpowered magic, go with Role Aids Psionics.