D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part XV: The FINAL ROUND)

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I think it's interesting to see how differently other people play the game.

Some classes which others have claimed aren't very good have consistently been the most played and/or most effective among groups I play with face-to-face.
Agreed. My experience with Battle Masters, for example, is just that--mine. No one has played a Battle Master in my games or any I have played, either, except for the one I was just playing. When I realized after several sessions I never actually used anything from the subclass, I asked the DM if I could change it to something I might actually use (which they agreed to).

Do you care to share your actual experiences contrasting the views you've seen others express?
 

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CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
@DND_Reborn I had a similar experience with the Champion. It got old fast. The Battle Master wasn't nearly as bad as the Champion, but it wasn't as good as the Eldritch Knight.

I'd be upvoting EK if it had made it into the finals, or Hexblade. But instead I have to settle for Oath of Ancients.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
@DND_Reborn I had a similar experience with the Champion. It got old fast. The Battle Master wasn't nearly as bad as the Champion, but it wasn't as good as the Eldritch Knight.
Interesting. I always felt Champion should be baked into Fighter, while I know many others feel Battle Master would be better baked into the class.

I'll tell you the really interesting thing (IMO) with my current Fighter PC. When the DM agreed I could switch my subclass, I reviewed all the others and NONE of them appealed to me for this PC.

Champion: ho-hum. I like Remarkable Athlete, but the rest doesn't appeal to me as it was too mechanical.
Eldritch Knight: considered it heavily. Only INT 10, but I could choose buff spells, etc. that don't rely on INT. But, it didn't fit the PC's persona.
Arcane Archer: nope, it's a heavy weapon melee build.
Cavalier: nope. doesn't ride and doesn't fit in general.
Samurai: considered it a bit, and sort of fit the persona but the features didn't fit really.
Psi Warrior: hell, no! Enough said...
Rune Knight: like the concept (sort of), but don't like the link to giants (could be refluffed) nor the selection of runes.

So, I have another week until we play again, and I am in Limbo about it.... So far, I really don't even feel like the PC needs a subclass at all. 🤷‍♂️
 

Argyle King

Legend
Agreed. My experience with Battle Masters, for example, is just that--mine. No one has played a Battle Master in my games or any I have played, either, except for the one I was just playing. When I realized after several sessions I never actually used anything from the subclass, I asked the DM if I could change it to something I might actually use (which they agreed to).

Do you care to share your actual experiences contrasting the views you've seen others express?

Personally, I'm a little behind on the Tasha's stuff and UA, so that may be part of it. But I can say what I've observed and played.


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One example which comes to mind is the Tempest Cleric. Early on, they tended to be somewhat common in games here. Players who leaned more toward good went more of the Thor/Zeus and righteous fury route; those with a less-good morality enjoyed living out Sith-inspired fantasies of zapping things.

As time went on, I think some of the interest waned because newer options (like Storm Sorcerer) offered similar options but with extra features.

At one point, I played a Storm Cleric, but I multiclassed into something else (which I can't remember). I enjoyed the channel divinity to max out damage. I didn't use it often, but it was nice to have when I did use it.

I don't remember anything being particularly outstanding about the class, but -from my own perspective- I liked that I was at least somewhat useful in a wide variety of situations. With heavier armor and better weapons, I could occasionally help out the front line. Being slanted toward thunder and lightning spells meant I could blast like a wizard when needed, but I also always had things like fog cloud on my list for utility and battlefield control.

The main negative that I remember is something which I feel applies to the Cleric in general: not much happens from level 9 to level 17 to keep me interested in the class.

As time went on, I wouldn't say that it remained a popular choice, but I'm not aware of anyone feeling negative toward the subclass.

-

Likewise, College of Lore tends to be a popular choice here. The flexibility to choose things from outside the class has, from what I can tell, allowed those who prefer story and fluff to fill a large range of archetypes. Those with an eye more toward crunch like being able to cherry pick their favorite spells from other classes.

But I think, over time, choice of Bard lost popularity in general as more players became familiar with some of the MCing tricks that could be achieved via Warlock while still filling a similar role.

Even so, when someone did play a bard, Lore tended to be one of the top choices.

-

I can partially agree with your views on the Battlemaster. At first, I thought it would be the 5e version of the Warlord. Maneuvers seemed like a pretty cool idea. But I quickly learned that many of them were not very good. The ones which I did use were better enough than the other choices that I usually used the same few over and over again.

In no way do I believe the class is/was weak; it just wasn't the experience I thought it would be going into it.

Oddly, for a subclass which appears to be about battlefield control and helping the team, my experience is that it ends up being more of a damage dealer.

One thing to point out in favor of the subclass is that a lot of the maneuvers still work with ranged attacks.

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My usual group is currently playing Spelljammer. I'm not currently in that game, but I can ask them what they're playing and get more info.

They had taken a break from D&D for a while to play other games.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Yeah, after literally getting none of my picks (other than kinda-sorta Lore) at the end, it's hard not to feel a little spiteful.

Though, as I said, I'm also in this to keep things interesting. Fighter would be easily winning right now without my downvotes, and this would be the case for any Fighter subclass except Eldritch Knight. We all know this.
My hate alone would have scoured the Champion from the thread.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
One example which comes to mind is the Tempest Cleric. Early on, they tended to be somewhat common in games here. Players who leaned more toward good went more of the Thor/Zeus and righteous fury route; those with a less-good morality enjoyed living out Sith-inspired fantasies of zapping things.

As time went on, I think some of the interest waned because newer options (like Storm Sorcerer) offered similar options but with extra features.

At one point, I played a Storm Cleric, but I multiclassed into something else (which I can't remember). I enjoyed the channel divinity to max out damage. I didn't use it often, but it was nice to have when I did use it.

I don't remember anything being particularly outstanding about the class, but -from my own perspective- I liked that I was at least somewhat useful in a wide variety of situations. With heavier armor and better weapons, I could occasionally help out the front line. Being slanted toward thunder and lightning spells meant I could blast like a wizard when needed, but I also always had things like fog cloud on my list for utility and battlefield control.

The main negative that I remember is something which I feel applies to the Cleric in general: not much happens from level 9 to level 17 to keep me interested in the class.

As time went on, I wouldn't say that it remained a popular choice, but I'm not aware of anyone feeling negative toward the subclass.
Ok, it is funny you mention Tempest Cleric because that is one of my other PCs in the same game.

I decided to try it out after it won the Cleric survivor thread. While I can see it's appeal (much of which you've outlined) I regret to say that I've used its Channel Divinity feature once and nothing else. I do use heavy armor (and shield) for AC 19, with a warpick and the PC has STR 16, so does decent weapon damage when not using Toll the Dead.

Sadly, just about any other heavy armor proficiency/martial weapons subclass would work equally well, if not better. Once again leading me to wonder why even bother with subclasses?

Likewise, College of Lore tends to be a popular choice here. The flexibility to choose things from outside the class has, from what I can tell, allowed those who prefer story and fluff to fill a large range of archetypes. Those with an eye more toward crunch like being able to cherry pick their favorite spells from other classes.

But I think, over time, choice of Bard lost popularity in general as more players became familiar with some of the MCing tricks that could be achieved via Warlock while still filling a similar role.

Even so, when someone did play a bard, Lore tended to be one of the top choices.
I love College of Lore, but am not a fan of Bards, so "College of Lore" would make a great Wizard subclass with just a little tweaking! :)

I haven't seen Bards getting replaced by Warlock, but it isn't surprising in some ways. I think Lore and Swords are the two most common Bard subclasses IME currently.

But I quickly learned that many of them were not very good.
For me to the point I haven't even bothered with them.

my experience is that it ends up being more of a damage dealer.
So many of them are just add superiority die to damage blah blah blah.
 

Xamnam

Loves Your Favorite Game
I would say roughly 90% of my Battle Master moves were Commander's Strike for our Rogue, Trip Attack, and Pushing Attack. Occasionally throwing in a Menacing Attack or Maneuvering Attack.
 


Ok, it is funny you mention Tempest Cleric because that is one of my other PCs in the same game.

I decided to try it out after it won the Cleric survivor thread. While I can see it's appeal (much of which you've outlined) I regret to say that I've used its Channel Divinity feature once and nothing else. I do use heavy armor (and shield) for AC 19, with a warpick and the PC has STR 16, so does decent weapon damage when not using Toll the Dead.

Sadly, just about any other heavy armor proficiency/martial weapons subclass would work equally well, if not better. Once again leading me to wonder why even bother with subclasses?


I love College of Lore, but am not a fan of Bards, so "College of Lore" would make a great Wizard subclass with just a little tweaking! :)

I haven't seen Bards getting replaced by Warlock, but it isn't surprising in some ways. I think Lore and Swords are the two most common Bard subclasses IME currently.


For me to the point I haven't even bothered with them.


So many of them are just add superiority die to damage blah blah blah.
It's cool that you decided to give the Tempest Cleric a try. I know you weren't happy with how the Cleric Survivor thread went down. But I'm wondering why you aren't using the subclass features of the Tempest or Battle Master. Do opportunities to use them not come up much in your games? I just can't imagine not trying to use mine unless I've discovered I dislike using the feature (War Wizard 6th level ability for me).
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
It's cool that you decided to give the Tempest Cleric a try. I know you weren't happy with how the Cleric Survivor thread went down. But I'm wondering why you aren't using the subclass features of the Tempest or Battle Master. Do opportunities to use them not come up much in your games? I just can't imagine not trying to use mine unless I've discovered I dislike using the feature (War Wizard 6th level ability for me).
Well, I've never even seen one played in my games, either, so yeah my three PCs were classing Fighter, Cleric, Wizard so I decided to go with Battle Master and Tempest domain.

Opportunities came up (like my cleric occasionally getting hit--though not often with his AC) but I still never used his Wrath of the Storm until late in the 4th session. I just never felt the need. The threat was minimal by then, I had plenty of HP, etc.

Even when my Fighter got missed (which happened often enough), I never bothered with Riposte, either. Again, just not necessary.

LOL I totally agree with War Magic! I loved it at 2nd level, but found the 6th level feature annoying. Of course, that happens a lot for me, so my PCs rarely make it past 5th level in any one class. I multiclass a lot.

I'm considering making a house rule and seeing if my DM will go with it to allow me to treat subclass feature levels as additional ASI/feats. I can see taking a feat or two more defining for my PC than most subclass features--but I worry that might be too powerful.

EDIT: I should add in all four sessions I never used Action Surge or Second Wind for my Fighter, either. 🤷‍♂️ It wasn't that the encounters were "easy" or anything. My wizard and fighter each almost died in two separate encounters--I would have used them in the one where my fighter went down, but he went down before I could...
 
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