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D&D (2024) why are spell schools and what should they be?

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
that explains why we have them but they feel a bit poorly built.
Some are. There are spells that don't necessarily fit into easily-defined categories, so they go into more open schools.

Some of the basic spells types are easy to categorize. We all know what the main Illusions are-- the ones that affect our eyesight and create fake things we can see, or remove things we can no longer see. We know what Necromantic spells are-- the ones that involve dead bodies and the removal of health via the body's degradation (poisons, fatigue, disease.) Enchantment spells charm people and animals. Conjuration spells create objects out of nothing. Divination spells let us see things that we ordinarily shouldn't due to distance.

But what about spells that "create" energy in the moment with the purpose of just causing physical harm, and then it goes away-- or does it? Fireball is "conjured" out of thin air with the purpose of exploding but it doesn't stick around like a conjured object would... although the Fireball can light other object on fire which DOES stick around. So the fire stays, but the fireBALL doesn't. So what school would that be? The game thus made the Evocation school for those spells that create energy from out of nowhere and cause damage but do not remain-- although the results of the conjured energy might. Things might remain on fire... cold areas might remain and make things slippery or freeze something in place.

Or a spell like Cause Fear-- is it meant to be a charm that mind controls you into becoming fearful and thus should be Enchantment... or is the spell actually affecting the brain chemistry that produces the fear effect and thus they put in into Necromancy to go along with the other "body degradation" spells? Which school is more appropriate? Does it matter? And once we bring the Transmutation school into it-- the school all about changing the physical composition and properties of objects and creatures... it makes us ask why are poisons and diseases not Transmutations as they are changing healthy bodies into unhealthy ones?

And none of this even begins to broker the question about things like "Why aren't all the Lightning or Fire spells in their own Schools? Why isn't there a School of Pyromancy?" And the reason is because we can lump all these spells together into whatever categories we want, so the game just has to pick and choose the categories it wishes to give to us. But a lot of times those categories don't actually do a whole lot, and the ones we have are not necessarily consistent with what TYPE of categorization we are going for. Like the fact that Conjuration and Transmutation are about what the spells DO to objects... whereas Necromancy is about spells that affect a TYPE of object (dead things). So in truth, the School of Necromancy would be better served in a school system that was categorizing thing by the TYPE of things the spells were making, like Pyromancy (fire spells), Aeromancy (air spells), and Biomancy (living creature spells) etc.

At the end of the day... the Schools really don't need to exist at all, and they only do as a Legacy Sacred Cow to the Illusionist class of AD&D. The game wanted to keep that "class" in the game... so they created a school of spells to allow players to have it. And then they said "What other archtypical purveyors of magic are there and can we create schools for them too? Yep! The Necromancer! The Mesmer or Enchanter! The Summoner! And once they did that... it came down to creating the other schools to put all the rest of the other spells in... in whatever goofy category they could think of that would apply.
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Primal: force damage, raw magic, dispelling, enchanting with +X or force, telekinesis, flight, detecting, time control(slow, haste)
Elemental: control over elements and nature, acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder, poison damage, weather control,
Life: control over life and death, healing, resurrection, energy drain, radiant damage, necrotic damage
mind: enchantment, illusions
summoning: teleports, summons,
matter/creation: manipulation of matter, shapeshifting, creating real objects,
These are nice... but even these aren't necessarily all that separate and we still get into overlaps and genericism.

Like for instance... why are Life spells and Elemental "control over nature" spells two separate things? They both are about affecting living things, so why are they in different schools? By the same token... why are spells that affect the Mind different than ones that affect Life? Our minds are living, and living creatures are the ones that have minds-- so anything that affects our brains is also a part of life magic, isn't it?

And is there really a different between the "manipulation" of matter and the "transportation" of matter, other than just distance? If you shapechange are you not moving matter from one place to another? So why would that be different than summoning, other than the distance of where the matter went? And do D&D worlds and universes have the the laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy? Because if they do... then it means that the conjuration of "real objects" is actually just the summoning of matter or energy from elsewhere and then physically manipulated to become the object you've conjured. And thus Summoning and Matter/Creation would be a single school and not two.

And this invariably is the issue with any categorization process-- there are always going to be arguments for what is really happening with all these effects and whether one category is better than another and whether our real-world chemistry/biology/physics are used to justify why we categorize things the way we are. Because at some point we get so far into the weeds that we end up with hundreds of different categories, all trying to be as specific as possible. In truth... we could put the D&D magic spell system through an entire Taxonomic Ranking like we do for animals and plants and end up with a system that categorizes everything. But at the end of the day, is that really useful to anyone?
 

Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition has the 8 Classical Schools of Magic that we are all familiar with, but it also has quite a number of smaller spell schools as well. They are:

1. Acid, 2. Affliction, 3. Air, 4. Arcane, 5. Attack, 6. Beasts, 7. Chaos, 8. Cold, 9. Communication, 10. Compulsion, 11. Displacement, 12. Earth, 13. Enhancement, 14. Evil, 15. Fear, 16. Fire, 17. Force, 18. Good, 19. Healing, 20. Knowledge, 21. Law, 22. Lightning, 23. Movement, 24. Nature, 25. Necrotic, 26. Obscurement, 27. Planar, 28. Plants, 29. Poison, 30. Prismatic, 31. Protection, 32. Psychic, 33. Radiant, 34. Scrying, 35. Senses, 36. Shadow, 37. Shapechanging, 38. Sound, 39. Storm, 40. Summoning, 41. Technological, 42. Telepathy, 43. Teleportation, 44. Terrain, 45. Thunder, 46. Time, 47. Transformation, 48. Unarmed, 49. Undead, 50. Utility, 51. Water, 52. Weaponry, and finally 53. Weather. :p

I know. It's fricking ridiculous to create so many smaller spell schools. :p But I could see a player going through all of the Wizard spells in A5e that deal with Fire in order to become a Pyromancer Wizard. Or picking up all of the spells that involve Plants in order to become a Wizard of the Green Thumb. ;)

In 5e, Fireball is an Evocation spell. In A5e, Fireball is an Evocation, Arcane, Fire spell.

Xiphumor, btw, has a spell school spreadsheet that they have been working on since A5e came out. :) It's quite extensive. ;)
 

in my other thread, I wondered why subclasses the wizard should have and one thing kept coming up the school specialist and it occurred to me that I do not get why we have the schools of magic, like what are they?

why do we have the schools of magic?

and what ones should we have as they feel kind of all over the place and have no clear set of rules?

and what ideas are not being represented?
They make a lot more sense when viewed under the lens of the Detect Magic spell and the idea of magic investigation.

You break into an archmage's crypt and pull up Detect Magic. You spot a glowing wall. Why is it glowing? The spell returns "Illusion" or "Transmutation" school, so you figure its hiding something. If the spell had returned Necromancy, then you'd know there's something related to undead going on. Abjuration means its protecting something, possibly some kind of Sealed Evil or a treasure vault. Evocation suggest explosive traps of some kind. Conjuration would probably be a teleport - either of you out or someone/something in. Divination suggests someone is spying on you and knows you're in the crypt.

Illusion - Am I messing with people's perceptions?
Enchantment - Their ability to think?
Transmutation - Am I transforming something
Evocation - flinging raw elemental energy around?
Divination - Am I learning something?
Abjuration - protections?
Necromancy - death / necrotic magics of all stripes?
Conjuration - moving something from elsewhere to here.

Very basic categories that are very helpful when dealing with NPC magic out in the world, and not the PC's magic.
 


Cadence

Legend
Supporter
in my other thread, I wondered why subclasses the wizard should have and one thing kept coming up the school specialist and it occurred to me that I do not get why we have the schools of magic, like what are they?

why do we have the schools of magic?

and what ones should we have as they feel kind of all over the place and have no clear set of rules?

and what ideas are not being represented?

Now I'm curious. LeGuin wasn't listed in Appendix N even though A Wizard of Earthsea was out in 68, and Potter and Rothfuss were still decades away. What other early inspirational literature had spell/magic separated by type?
 

Undrave

Legend
They make a lot more sense when viewed under the lens of the Detect Magic spell and the idea of magic investigation.

You break into an archmage's crypt and pull up Detect Magic. You spot a glowing wall. Why is it glowing? The spell returns "Illusion" or "Transmutation" school, so you figure its hiding something. If the spell had returned Necromancy, then you'd know there's something related to undead going on. Abjuration means its protecting something, possibly some kind of Sealed Evil or a treasure vault. Evocation suggest explosive traps of some kind. Conjuration would probably be a teleport - either of you out or someone/something in. Divination suggests someone is spying on you and knows you're in the crypt.

Illusion - Am I messing with people's perceptions?
Enchantment - Their ability to think?
Transmutation - Am I transforming something
Evocation - flinging raw elemental energy around?
Divination - Am I learning something?
Abjuration - protections?
Necromancy - death / necrotic magics of all stripes?
Conjuration - moving something from elsewhere to here.

Very basic categories that are very helpful when dealing with NPC magic out in the world, and not the PC's magic.
The question is... does that make sense?

Take Shield, for exemple. it's considered an Abjuration spell, right? But... why? What it physically does is create a shield of energy, so why isn't it an evocation spell, or even a conjuration? It's only an Abjuration spell because, in game terms, it protects you. But why would a person in universe consider Shield and Protection from Good and Evil or Sanctuary to be the same type of magic?

So, I think it's important to ask why we want schools of magic and what exactly do they mean. Do they have a meaning in universe? And is that meaning based on an inherent quality of the spell? If so, then they should be created with an eye for in-universe logic. Are they just keywords for the game? Then why isn't there more?
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
What other early inspirational literature had spell/magic separated by type?
I wonder how much Lyndon Hardy's Master of the Five Magics (1980) had on later development. AD&D 1st edition was well-solidified by then with its schools of magic, but later authors might have drawn from this novel, which posits five very, very different schools of magic coexisting in a setting.
 

The question is... does that make sense?

Take Shield, for exemple. it's considered an Abjuration spell, right? But... why? What it physically does is create a shield of energy, so why isn't it an evocation spell, or even a conjuration? It's only an Abjuration spell because, in game terms, it protects you. But why would a person in universe consider Shield and Protection from Good and Evil or Sanctuary to be the same type of magic?

So, I think it's important to ask why we want schools of magic and what exactly do they mean. Do they have a meaning in universe? And is that meaning based on an inherent quality of the spell? If so, then they should be created with an eye for in-universe logic. Are they just keywords for the game? Then why isn't there more?
Sure it makes sense. When all is said and done, all arcane magic is manipulating energy in some way or another, after all. Arcane magic in the Realms is tapping into the energy and forces of the Weave and shaping them. Arcane magic in Dragonlance is pulling power from the Moons and shaping it. And so on. For divine and primal magics, you're a conduit for the power of godly or elemental/fey beings to channel through, but its the same idea. Energy moving around.

There's no need to force D&D magic into Fantasy Thermodynamics, Fantasy Laws of Motion, Fantasy Chemistry, and Fantasy Biology schools just because there's some similarities. Magic can follow its own rules.

Why would someone consider Shield and Protection from Good and Evil the same school? They both protect you. One is a shield to protect against physical attacks, one is to protect against eldritch forces, but I bet they could have the same basic spell structure - a shell of magic protecting the body and soul, attuned to "block" different types of energy: Physical force, divine and primal forces, etc. Even Dispel and Counter could be considered the same, by creating a shell that blocks energy and disrupts its spell form, rendering it null.

Why isn't there more done with spell schools? Because, lets be honest. This is a game that specializes in dungeon delving and killing monsters, all while taking loot. Not a magical academy nor a wizard research hub, Strixhaven aside. The details simply don't matter for the majority of games, and even then, some of the details change between settings, so an in depth dive into the exact science behind magic would be... kinda pointless.
 
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Undrave

Legend
Sure it makes sense. When all is said and done, all arcane magic is manipulating energy in some way or another, after all. Arcane magic in the Realms is tapping into the energy and forces of the Weave and shaping them. Arcane magic in Dragonlance is pulling power from the Moons and shaping it. And so on. For divine and primal magics, you're a conduit for the power of godly or elemental/fey beings to channel through, but its the same idea. Energy moving around.

There's no need to force D&D magic into Fantasy Thermodynamics, Fantasy Laws of Motion, Fantasy Chemistry, and Fantasy Biology schools just because there's some similarities. Magic can follow its own rules.

Why would someone consider Shield and Protection from Good and Evil the same school? They both protect you. One is a shield to protect against physical attacks, one is to protect against eldritch forces, but I bet they could have the same basic spell structure - a shell of magic protecting the body and soul, attuned to "block" different types of energy: Physical force, divine and primal forces, etc. Even Dispel and Counter could be considered the same, by creating a shell that blocks energy and disrupts its spell form, rendering it null.

Why isn't there more done with spell schools? Because, lets be honest. This is a game that specializes in dungeon delving and killing monsters, all while taking loot. Not a magical academy nor a wizard research hub, Strixhaven aside. The details simply don't matter for the majority of games, and even then, some of the details change between settings, so an in depth dive into the exact science behind magic would be... kinda pointless.
Maybe you don't need to get all scientific, but I still don't think the current schools feel very intuitive from a in-universe perspective.
 

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