WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[Chaosmancer]

There is so much more out there, even within the core 5e ruleset, and I wish WotC would embrace just a little bit of that, so all those new players that dropped in their laps in the last decade actually saw something more than the most popular way to play. As the market leader, WotC could do that if they want a healthy hobby.

Who says that those players DON'T see more than just the most popular way?

Do you realize how vastly different a Ravenloft game is from a West Marches game from an Eberron game? All of those are different ways to play, and new 5e players can be exposed to all of them. Some group in the middle of nowhere is playing a new version of the game that no one else has seen yet, and you might stumble upon it on a random blog post and think "Oh, that's a really cool idea". There are dozens of ways to play DnD currently being played right now.

The problem for you is, none of the ones getting attention are OSR style games. But... there is an entire OSR community, doing what you want them to do. So... how is the hobby unhealthy? How is having WoTC drop a 500 lbs hammer into the OSR space going to make that space better?

You phrase this like there is some dire threat or wasting disease inflicting RPGs that only WoTC making multiple OSR products can fix... but that just isn't true.

 

[Chaosmancer]

And when we finally did defeat the dungeon/adventure there was a sense of real accomplishment attached, that wouldn't have been there had it been a cakewalk.

So, when my party recently celebrated their victory over some bandits that were causing them problems, they didn't "earn" their victory enough to feel a sense of accomplishment?

This is a really toxic mindset that you feel that "I think this would be too easy" translates into "this is too easy and no one would feel real accomplishment beating it". My players have felt a real sense of accomplishment for the entirety of 5e. None of them have felt their adventures were a cakewalk. Just because you assume they would be doesn't make it so.

High-action is fine to a point. I'm not a fan of D&D as a supers game; if I want to play supers I'll find a different system that's made for it. Immediate or near-immediate resource recovery (particularly hit points!) is neither fine nor realistic.

Frankly? Who cares if it fits your definition of realistic? You may not like it, but you not liking it doesn't mean the hobby is doomed to rot from the inside out and die. And, actually, it is fine. It is completely and totally fine. I know this because I've been running 5e since NEXT, and you know the only place I have ever, ever heard people complaining about hit point recovery?

This forum. Nowhere else. Not a single player or DM I have ever dealt with has complained that hit point recovery on a long rest is a serious problem with the game design.

The game's design allows the opponent to provide whatever degree of challenge they like, and doing so is expected.

With D&D design the degree of challenge is largely laid out in the rules and a DM who wants to up this quickly gets in hot water with the players.

What are you talking about? I've never gotten into hot water with my players for upping the difficulty of monsters or encounters. Not once. It might be because I foreshadow it and don't do it randomly. I mean, if I tell them "this creature is worshipped as a god" and then it is a hard fight... they expected it to be a hard fight. Things were working as intended, even if I had to go in and adjust the baseline to make that be the case.

Frankly, this sounds like an issue with toxic players who are constantly berating you for deviating from the rules they expect more than some sort of universal truth about the game design.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I mean, I get where you're coming from, but I'm pretty sure that the success of the MCU disproves this theory.

Except that the MCU is currently buckling and straining under the weight of their canon. I know many people who were very off-put by some of the recent movies because those movies needed the TV mini-series to be understood, but then rewrote the TV mini-series.

The MCU did great for about 10 years. WoTC wants DnD to last longer than that, and canon seems to be very detrimental to that.

Also with Star Wars, they ditched the EU, which arguably did lower the barrier for entry, but since then Disney have woven up a web of canon that's almost as complex as the old EU, just massively more consistent, and guided by Disney and their strategies, not guided by "How Lucas was feeling about the book that landed on his desk that day".

WotC may believe canon is off-putting, but I'd say the evidence is pretty clear that they're wrong, if they do.

Having not seen a single positive thing said about the recent Star Wars movies, and the only good things being the TV shows that largely are ignoring the canon plots? I'm not sure they would be wrong.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I suspect that there are a lot of DMs that was depth and world building but many of them want to, do their own world building and those that want to import world building have found a third party source.
You are not going to get world building from WoTC ever again. It is market splitting and they are too big tent to want that.
Canon is divisive, it becomes a barrier to entry of newbies and is off putting to people that do not like the lore.

Thing is I don't think they are abandoning World Building. We got a fair amount of it in several 5e books.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I mean, I get where you're coming from, but I'm pretty sure that the success of the MCU disproves this theory.

Also with Star Wars, they ditched the EU, which arguably did lower the barrier for entry, but since then Disney have woven up a web of canon that's almost as complex as the old EU, just massively more consistent, and guided by Disney and their strategies, not guided by "How Lucas was feeling about the book that landed on his desk that day".

WotC may believe canon is off-putting, but I'd say the evidence is pretty clear that they're wrong, if they do.

Get back to me when the MCU contradicts existing in a major way.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Get back to me when the MCU contradicts existing in a major way.

It's contradicted existing Marvel in huge ways from day one lol dude.

 

[Faolyn]

I mean, I get where you're coming from, but I'm pretty sure that the success of the MCU disproves this theory.

Also with Star Wars, they ditched the EU, which arguably did lower the barrier for entry, but since then Disney have woven up a web of canon that's almost as complex as the old EU, just massively more consistent, and guided by Disney and their strategies, not guided by "How Lucas was feeling about the book that landed on his desk that day".

WotC may believe canon is off-putting, but I'd say the evidence is pretty clear that they're wrong, if they do.

RPGs, however, invite you to make the world your own, or to make your own world entirely. It's different than movie or comic book or novel series. You watch or read those things, but you don't really interact with it unless you're making fan content like fic.

Whereas if I want to start running or even playing a game in the Realms, I kind of have to know at least a little bit about what's going there to be able to have my adventure or character properly fit in.

 

[Scribe]

I feel you. I get tired too. I took a long break from DMing recently because it was making me angry, actually. But I can't believe that I'm the only one left who wants depth and worldbuilding in D&D.

I think the point is, D&D doesnt want to be in that business anymore. Eberron has a WEALTH of that now, when considering the 3 5e books.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Who says that those players DON'T see more than just the most popular way?

Do you realize how vastly different a Ravenloft game is from a West Marches game from an Eberron game? All of those are different ways to play, and new 5e players can be exposed to all of them. Some group in the middle of nowhere is playing a new version of the game that no one else has seen yet, and you might stumble upon it on a random blog post and think "Oh, that's a really cool idea". There are dozens of ways to play DnD currently being played right now.

The problem for you is, none of the ones getting attention are OSR style games. But... there is an entire OSR community, doing what you want them to do. So... how is the hobby unhealthy? How is having WoTC drop a 500 lbs hammer into the OSR space going to make that space better?

You phrase this like there is some dire threat or wasting disease inflicting RPGs that only WoTC making multiple OSR products can fix... but that just isn't true.

I would like it if WotC spent some effort showcasing playstyles other than the current most popular. Making better alternate rules in the DMG could do that. A worldbuilding guide could do that. As the 800lb gorilla, WotC's new fanbase probably has little exposure to the RPG world as a whole outside of 5e, so WotC is in the best position to shine light on alternative playstyles.

I swear I'm not trying to yuck anyone's yum. What I am trying to do is suggest that the current legal owners of "the world's most popular fantasy role-playing game" could do more for gamers that fall through the cracks of their monument to popularity, and I think they should.

You guys want me to be more constructive. I'm working on it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Except that the MCU is currently buckling and straining under the weight of their canon. I know many people who were very off-put by some of the recent movies because those movies needed the TV mini-series to be understood, but then rewrote the TV mini-series.

The MCU did great for about 10 years. WoTC wants DnD to last longer than that, and canon seems to be very detrimental to that.



Having not seen a single positive thing said about the recent Star Wars movies, and the only good things being the TV shows that largely are ignoring the canon plots? I'm not sure they would be wrong.

You have a very odd understanding of current Star Wars projects, to my mind.