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D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to push the game more toward story?

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
Probably the single best-known "narrative" game is Apocalypse World. It's the game that inspired PbtA.

AW does not have particularly fancy mechanics. It doesn't have fate points. It doesn't use "say 'yes' or roll the dice" (that's from a different Vincent Baker game, DitV). It has a very small number of PC build options which allows players to establish fiction which goes beyond the in-fiction causal consequences of things their PCs do.

There are two main features of AW that mean that, in play, it yields story.

The most important is the GM moves. When it's the GM's turn to speak in the conversation of the game, the GM make a move. And most of the time this is a soft move. GM soft moves include (inter alia) "announcing future badness" - in ENworld parlance this is a form of what is often called "telegraphing" - or "announcing offscreen badness" or "offering an opportunity, with or without a cost". In some circumstances the GM can make a hard move - this can include (inter alia) "inflicting harm" (ie dealing damage) or "separating them" or "turning their move back on them" (eg the PC as played by the player tried to discern a weakness, but instead reveals a weakness of their own). The list of GM moves does not include nothing happens.

Nearly as important are the player moves. These are little resolution subsystems that are triggered, in the course of play, by the player declaring a certain sort of action for their PC (eg trying to intimidate someone ("go aggro") or trying to exert leverage over someone ("seduce/manipulate")). If a move fails, the GM is licensed to make a hard move. The other time a hard move is OK is when a player hands an opportunity to the GM on a platter (eg the GM makes a soft move, the player proceeds in disregard of it, now the GM can make a hard move).

If a player declares an action for their PC that does not trigger a move, then no dice are rolled, the conversation of the game continues, and the GM makes an appropriate move - probably a soft move, unless the player's declared action provides an opportunity on a platter.

This is fairly different from a lot of D&D play. Not because of anything about the mechanics. But because of the rules about what the GM is to say.
This is interesting but it strikes me as culturally fairly far removed from the common culture of D&D play. I wonder are there games have have elements that encourage narrative that are closer to the cultural norms of D&D that could be added as an optional extra for those tables that are interested and willing to buy in.
It seems to me that "pushing the game toward story" as the thread title suggest involves a change in the culture of the game. An barring a CR like popularity for Apocalypse World this can only be accomplished by iterative nudging of the base D&D experience by the addition of tools or other support (Let's play videos) or something that opens up the experience.
 

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ART!

Deluxe Unhuman
Adding mechanical ways to include Background characteristics and features into play might help. Like Inspiration, the fact that you can theoretically use your background to give you advantage on a roll is something that only some players or tables will even think of.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I think for a lot of people, these discussions are akin to painting that army you bought. That is,they actually represent the bulk of the time we actually engage in the hobby. On the upside, unlike painting, it's social.
Painting is stress relieving. Pointless argument on the internet is stress inducing.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
Painting is stress relieving. Pointless argument on the internet is stress inducing.
Heh!, arguing on the internet is a voluntary activity (unless you are being paid to do it) and if it is stress inducing one really should stop.
Getting mad at people on the internet it like getting mad at the wind. You can be as mad as you like but the wind still blows.
 

pemerton

Legend
This is interesting but it strikes me as culturally fairly far removed from the common culture of D&D play.
Agreed.

For instance, "nothing happens" is clearly a legitimate GM-side move in a lot of D&D play.

And also, in a lot of D&D play the GM is allowed to make a hard move whether or not the player hands an opportunity on a platter, in the AW sense of that phrase. This is related to the role of "secret" or "unrevealed" backstory in D&D play, which GMs routinely rely on to help make their moves, but which doesn't play the same role in AW play (eg it doesn't count as an opportunity on a platter that an action a player declares interacts in some way, unknown to the player, with some bit of GM unrevealed backstory or setting notes).

I'm sure there are other differences two, but the two I've mentioned are the first that I think of.

As you may know, there are pockets of approaches to 4e D&D which come closer to the AW approach. I don't know that they were ever "mainstream" even for 4e D&D, and I believe are even less mainstream in the post-4e era.

I wonder are there games have have elements that encourage narrative that are closer to the cultural norms of D&D that could be added as an optional extra for those tables that are interested and willing to buy in.
Burning Wheel is a bit closer to D&D than AW; and Torchbearer closer still. I still think that adapting some of the approaches found in these games would require cultural change, particularly around what the GM is permitted to say. For instance, both use a form of "say 'yes' or roll the dice"; whereas a common D&D norm is to sometimes say "no" (which in AW parlance often means making a hard move) in response to a player action declaration, even if the player has not rolled and failed a check.

It seems to me that "pushing the game toward story" as the thread title suggest involves a change in the culture of the game.
Agreed.

I think there is a bit of a tendency to place too much emphasis on a few mechanics - eg Fate points, BIFTs, etc - rather than to focus on these core questions that govern who gets to say what when, with a particular focus on the GM. But it is different approaches to these core questions, rather than nifty mechanics, that tend to be the driving machinery of RPGs (like AW) that are widely seen as "story oriented".

I am able to run "story oriented" Classic Traveller making almost no changes to the mechanics that were published in 1977 (the only significant change I have made is to generate the star map on more of a just-in-time basis, rather than in advance of play as the rulebook instructs me to). But I have adopted a version of the AW approach to who gets to say what when, taking advantage of the fact that, just like AW, Classic Traveller bundles much of its action resolution into discrete, and trope-y/thematically salient moves (like "When you attempt an interstellar jump . . ." or "When you try a non-ordinary manoeuvre wearing a vacc suit . . ." or "When you deal with police or other government officials . . .").

Without wanting to rehash a different thread's debate in this one, I think "pushing the game toward story" would have to begin with a discussion of the different sorts of approaches to GMing. (And I should add: of course there is an approach to story in RPGing that is very different from the AW approach I've posted about in this thread - that is, the DL-approach which relies heavily on the GM suspending the rules, and managing the backstory, so as to make sure a story happens somewhat independently of the actual minutiae of play.)
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
snip

Without wanting to rehash a different thread's debate in this one, I think "pushing the game toward story" would have to begin with a discussion of the different sorts of approaches to GMing. (And I should add: of course there is an approach to story in RPGing that is very different from the AW approach I've posted about in this thread - that is, the DL-approach which relies heavily on the GM suspending the rules, and managing the backstory, so as to make sure a story happens somewhat independently of the actual minutiae of play.)
What is DL?
 



darkbard

Legend
Are you referring to the original Dragonlance Modules here? I never played them or ran them. I believe that they were very much on rails and even needed DM force and the use of illusionism to make work as intended.
You are correct in your understanding, and this is part of what @pemerton is getting at when he talks about who is permitted/constrained to say what at various instances of play.
 

ART!

Deluxe Unhuman
For my money, I think the way to do this (push the game more toward story) is to work within the structure 5E already has. I don't see WOTC adding any big story-centered mechanics to the game any time soon, so I've been trying to figure out how to use stuff that's already in the game to achieve this. I'd love to hear what others have come up with along those lines.

I flirted with assigning die types to each Background characteristic. Flaw gets a d4, and then the player can distribute d6s and one d8 among Ideal, Bond, and Personality. If players want more than one Bond (for instance), I'd probably allow another d6 there. Mechanically, it's very much like the Proficiency Die variant rule in the game, but the player could add that die to a relevant roll once per game session, or in-game day.

The problem was getting the players and even myself to even start doing this. Now, instead, I'm just going to remind people to use their Background stuff to give them advantage on appropriate rolls.
 

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