D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to push the game more toward story?

[Incenjucar]

I've seen a lot of published D&D scenarios which only work on the premise that the players will have their PCs be motivated do some particular thing - chase the villains, rescue the victim, explore the house/cave/dungeon/etc.

<insert rant about the quality of published adventures and the bad habits they give new DMs>

A DM should really be tailoring any given adventure to their group or starting with the premise "hey we're going to be running scenarios with X motivation, so please make characters who can be compelled by that motivation".

 

[pemerton]

A DM should really be tailoring any given adventure to their group or starting with the premise "hey we're going to be running scenarios with X motivation, so please make characters who can be compelled by that motivation".

The premise you describe would be an example of what I mentioned upthread: the GM making key decisions about what the protagonists want.

The only version of D&D I'm familiar with that embraces the first approach is 4e D&D, with its emphasis on player-authored quests.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I've seen a lot of published D&D scenarios which only work on the premise that the players will have their PCs be motivated do some particular thing - chase the villains, rescue the victim, explore the house/cave/dungeon/etc.

There are whole story games that assume the PCs are heroic, or villainous, or afraid of dying, or whatever else.

That isn’t the GM telling the players what the PCs want.

At worst, it’s mismatched expectations for what game is being played.

 

[Incenjucar]

The premise you describe would be an example of what I mentioned upthread: the GM making key decisions about what the protagonists want.

The only version of D&D I'm familiar with that embraces the first approach is 4e D&D, with its emphasis on player-authored quests.

D&D is a multiplayer cooperative game. It requires that everyone in the game be at least sufficiently cooperative enough to accomplish some task. A MUD or an MMO is better for when you want to do your own things and not accomplish much and roleplay without regard for anyone else.
If a DM is running a pre-fab adventure, the characters being run need to be the kinds of characters who would get involved in that adventure. I personally do not like pre-fab adventures, but some people do, and "will actually play the adventure" is needed to justify those expensive hardbacks. If you're running Tomb of Horrors, and half the players would rather run a tailoring business in Waterdeep and the other half want to become dragon riders in Tassledale, then you are not actually running Tomb of Horrors.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I may be biased due to primarily playing with long term friends. But we have usually asked: good or evil? The assumption is that neutral folks will be mixed in both.

This is shorthand for “will try to be heroes” or are totally mercenary and “may not be enticed to so hero stuff.”

The DM then goes with it. It’s been easy. In either case we work together for shared goals. Chaotic evil died with our youth.

We have assumed that heroes can often be enticed to help people. As evil murder hobos and conquerors, the dm knows we have to have some real self interest in it.

I cannot play with people who try to do anything but what the DM lays out. Did that in high school a little and the person who could not go with the flow was one who had trouble just getting along with people. He’s not in the group anymore.

Then we do what we want in those confines without fear of too too much railroad.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I just thought I'd add a further note on "Emotional Growth Feats" and why the very idea of them appears to be looking in the wrong place to @Incenjucar

• A war priest who decides that they've seen enough of creating devasatation and who decides to focus hard on the healing arts, becoming a life domain cleric has undergone character growth
• A life domain priest who loses too many of their patients to raiders and takes up the warhammer to protect their patients, going after the cause of the injuries, and becomes a war domain cleric has undergone character growth.

The fact that they've grown in opposite directions doesn't make either not growth. And the fact they've both had character growth doesn't make either more powerful. Which means when you're talking about feats, i.e. something you add on to the character you're being massively restricted. (Which doesn't mean a feat like Sentinel or Resilient can't be the result of character growth - but let's not have feats like "Has had an emotional reaction" or "Recovering from betrayal")

 

[SteveC]

There are a lot of people talking past each other in this thread due to a lack of experience with what "pushing a game towards story means." Most of that seems to come from a lack of experience with the kind of games that do this sort of thing, which leads to a question of "why would you even want to do this sort of thing?"

If you are looking to understand what's meant here, here are some games to check out:

• 13th Age. I recommend this one first, since it has a lot of D20 elements, and is also available through an SRD, so you can check it out for free.
• Blades in the Dark: a game centered on heists. If you think the "Dragonheist" adventure left something to be desired, well, this is a system to check out, since it's designed to do that sort of thing.
• Dungeon World: this is a PbtA game that's designed using D&D stats and terms. It has classes and levels and is really approachable, if you want to learn about story mechanics and keep familiar terms front and center.
• Swords of the Serpentine: this is a fantasy game based on GUMSHOE, a system about solving crimes and mysteries. Again, if you want to look at a system with mechanical support for that sort of thing, look here.

It's pretty clear that WotC is moving more in the "story" direction in the attempt to broaden the appeal of D&D and bring in players who aren't interested in the dungeon crawling aspects. There are a ton of people out there who might not be interested in going into a dungeon to get gold, but might find solving a mystery in a world of magic and dragons really interesting.

I think the idea of what can be done to make the D&D rules more focused in this direction comes from the fact that the system assumes you will interact with the skill or exploration system in a journey to get to the combat part of the game, and that combat and fighting things can solve big problems.

If you expect players to solve problems using their wits and skills without combat, D&D is (and this is my opinion only) a less than inspiring game, since that's not its focus. That's the point that at least I'm trying to get to: what makes for telling better story that doesn't lean on the combat part of the game.

So I'd suggest looking at something like 13th Age at least to see what these systems are trying to do. Maybe that will help, maybe you'll recoil in horror, but it's a direction that the designers really seem to be looking in.

 

[tetrasodium]

There are a lot of people talking past each other in this thread due to a lack of experience with what "pushing a game towards story means." Most of that seems to come from a lack of experience with the kind of games that do this sort of thing, which leads to a question of "why would you even want to do this sort of thing?"

If you are looking to understand what's meant here, here are some games to check out:

• 13th Age. I recommend this one first, since it has a lot of D20 elements, and is also available through an SRD, so you can check it out for free.
• Blades in the Dark: a game centered on heists. If you think the "Dragonheist" adventure left something to be desired, well, this is a system to check out, since it's designed to do that sort of thing.
• Dungeon World: this is a PbtA game that's designed using D&D stats and terms. It has classes and levels and is really approachable, if you want to learn about story mechanics and keep familiar terms front and center.
• Swords of the Serpentine: this is a fantasy game based on GUMSHOE, a system about solving crimes and mysteries. Again, if you want to look at a system with mechanical support for that sort of thing, look here.

It's pretty clear that WotC is moving more in the "story" direction in the attempt to broaden the appeal of D&D and bring in players who aren't interested in the dungeon crawling aspects. There are a ton of people out there who might not be interested in going into a dungeon to get gold, but might find solving a mystery in a world of magic and dragons really interesting.

I think the idea of what can be done to make the D&D rules more focused in this direction comes from the fact that the system assumes you will interact with the skill or exploration system in a journey to get to the combat part of the game, and that combat and fighting things can solve big problems.

If you expect players to solve problems using their wits and skills without combat, D&D is (and this is my opinion only) a less than inspiring game, since that's not its focus. That's the point that at least I'm trying to get to: what makes for telling better story that doesn't lean on the combat part of the game.

So I'd suggest looking at something like 13th Age at least to see what these systems are trying to do. Maybe that will help, maybe you'll recoil in horror, but it's a direction that the designers really seem to be looking in.

Actually with some of the changes like specified action types, the announcement of their VTT, & the whatever it's called MIC looking analog due out late next year I wouldn't be surprised if oned&d takes steps to give the GM back some influence & things move more towards 6e not trying to actively kneecap dungeon crawling as a playstyle.

A VTT makes it easy to load up stored maps when you need a generic cavern/cave/sewer/etc but not so much when bob is trying to run from the adventure & you need to keep inventing new locations that get more & more specific

 

[Incenjucar]

I expect that a lot of the disconnect comes from different experiences and perspectives between "My campaign needs more X and I want tools to improve it" and "My campaign is overflowing with X and tools will get in the way of that".

Edit: It may be worth noting that I already let players futz around with their builds. I only care that they're not trying to use a game breaking combo that they found online. Beyond that, it's their character.

 

[Reynard]

I find it weird that a number of folks in this thread are arguing one way or another about "pushing a game toward story" without actually bothering to define waht that means.