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D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to push the game more toward story?

Aaarrggghhhhh!!!!!!! I have been writing again and again parts of this on this thread, sometimes in direct reply to you.

From here
The best class in 5e for character development is the Warlock because you get to choose how you level up, by picking invocations. Two warlocks are not the same as each other (and it would be better if you replaced roughly half the invocations with good ones). Second best is either the sorcerer (your spells are determined with each level) or the artificer (what did you spend your time learning how to create)? Most of the classes with spells have either the same spell list or at worse can switch books.

I want other classes to be able to do this; once you have selected a subclass to not spend the rest of your time just levelling up as a cookie cutter member of that subclass unless you abandon your class entirely to multiclass. And OneD&D feats are better - partly because the feats aren't so in competition with ASIs and partly because they are much better balanced meaning there are more good choices.

From here
The fact that levelling is passive only makes it push the story more because the players and characters have less control over it and it forces them more down a predetermined path. And you have to write your settings such that levelling with the inherent vast disparity in power is a part of them.
Now, I'll give you a mechanic that to me is one that encourages story from Apocalypse World (from memory)
When life becomes untenable choose 1 [exclusive so each can only be picked once]:
  • Die, permanently
  • Come back with -1 Hard
  • Come back with +1 Weird
  • Come back with a different playbook [class]
(The Apocalypse World stats are Hard, Hot, Sharp, Cool, and Weird and a +1 modifier is significant).

Do I think that this sort of mechanic would work in D&D where coming back after death was fairly cheap but had limited uses and a player chosen long term consequence (for example replacing your subclass with one from the god or patron that brought you back?) I certainly think I'd like to see something inspired by this mechanic rather than no consequences at all other than diamond and spell slot cost.

From here
5e has a tool for storytelling that I don't think is pushed enough although I've used to good effect (having stolen the idea from Apocalypse World) - the subclass change. The Paladin of Valour who loses the faith can become a Paladin of Redemption, of Glory, of Conquest, or even an Oathbreaker - or a Warlock can change patrons. This is a very powerful tool and should be used sparingly (I've even turned a battlemaster into an echo night for reasons)
This also ties into my pet hate about 5e's storytelling - character growth is on rails. Once you have your subclass at level 3 you've very few important choices left to make; you're almost certainly taking an ASI in your primary stat at 4 or 8 and most of the +1 feats just aren't that good. Who most characters are mechanically at level 11 is almost entirely predetermined from who they were at level 3 unless they multiclass. (This is a key reason I like the OneD&D feat changes).
The other biiiig thing is a lack of consequences for combat. No Rust Monsters. No wounds. No scars. Either you die or you're fine.
I'd also give a lot of monsters a "short rest action" in their statblocks - so if the PCs stop they can recover their wound and are now fighting slightly empowered versions of their foes. And more weight on what you can do with loot.

Again I think I've been pretty clear in what I want and how it can tie into 5e's existing mechanics. And you'll note that most of what I want isn't additional character power like feats. It's allowing characters to change to better reflect who they are and what has happened to them. "Emotional growth feats" are the most ham-fisted way I can imagine to do this.
Yeah, as an example of this sort of design, in my own game you play, and during play you may run into situations (will, if you play correctly) where the PCs 'get stuff', which I call 'boons'. Any time a PC gains a major boon, which would be, say, a magic sword, they also gain a level. There are callings (classes) but they don't, mostly, force you to get only certain boons, story logic handles that. A lot of it is likely to be player preference too in actual play (IE whomever wants a magic sword as part of their character concept picks it up). Players are also expected to author quests for their PCs, which are a primary source of the narrative drive, and generally imply some sort of boon (IE find the Altar of Sunlight, you can bet what you will get when you pray there, right).

I think it sounds like One D&D is trying to move at least somewhat in the same direction. To Be Honest, this is basically going back to roughly where 4e was almost 15 years ago, where you pick powers, feats, and then PP and ED, as well as items, which constantly reflect the incremental development of your PC in whatever direction, and then also provide a lot of story leverage. Heroes of Myth & Legend just kind of amped that up, so I expect One D&D won't quite hit the same focus there as HoML does. But then I'm a fan of pushing things in RPG design, and paring away the non-essential.
 

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Incenjucar

Legend
Aaarrggghhhhh!!!!!!! I have been writing again and again parts of this on this thread, sometimes in direct reply to you.

From here
The best class in 5e for character development is the Warlock because you get to choose how you level up, by picking invocations. Two warlocks are not the same as each other (and it would be better if you replaced roughly half the invocations with good ones). Second best is either the sorcerer (your spells are determined with each level) or the artificer (what did you spend your time learning how to create)? Most of the classes with spells have either the same spell list or at worse can switch books.

I want other classes to be able to do this; once you have selected a subclass to not spend the rest of your time just levelling up as a cookie cutter member of that subclass unless you abandon your class entirely to multiclass. And OneD&D feats are better - partly because the feats aren't so in competition with ASIs and partly because they are much better balanced meaning there are more good choices.

From here
The fact that levelling is passive only makes it push the story more because the players and characters have less control over it and it forces them more down a predetermined path. And you have to write your settings such that levelling with the inherent vast disparity in power is a part of them.
Now, I'll give you a mechanic that to me is one that encourages story from Apocalypse World (from memory)
When life becomes untenable choose 1 [exclusive so each can only be picked once]:
  • Die, permanently
  • Come back with -1 Hard
  • Come back with +1 Weird
  • Come back with a different playbook [class]
(The Apocalypse World stats are Hard, Hot, Sharp, Cool, and Weird and a +1 modifier is significant).

Do I think that this sort of mechanic would work in D&D where coming back after death was fairly cheap but had limited uses and a player chosen long term consequence (for example replacing your subclass with one from the god or patron that brought you back?) I certainly think I'd like to see something inspired by this mechanic rather than no consequences at all other than diamond and spell slot cost.

From here
5e has a tool for storytelling that I don't think is pushed enough although I've used to good effect (having stolen the idea from Apocalypse World) - the subclass change. The Paladin of Valour who loses the faith can become a Paladin of Redemption, of Glory, of Conquest, or even an Oathbreaker - or a Warlock can change patrons. This is a very powerful tool and should be used sparingly (I've even turned a battlemaster into an echo night for reasons)
This also ties into my pet hate about 5e's storytelling - character growth is on rails. Once you have your subclass at level 3 you've very few important choices left to make; you're almost certainly taking an ASI in your primary stat at 4 or 8 and most of the +1 feats just aren't that good. Who most characters are mechanically at level 11 is almost entirely predetermined from who they were at level 3 unless they multiclass. (This is a key reason I like the OneD&D feat changes).
The other biiiig thing is a lack of consequences for combat. No Rust Monsters. No wounds. No scars. Either you die or you're fine.
I'd also give a lot of monsters a "short rest action" in their statblocks - so if the PCs stop they can recover their wound and are now fighting slightly empowered versions of their foes. And more weight on what you can do with loot.

Again I think I've been pretty clear in what I want and how it can tie into 5e's existing mechanics. And you'll note that most of what I want isn't additional character power like feats. It's allowing characters to change to better reflect who they are and what has happened to them. "Emotional growth feats" are the most ham-fisted way I can imagine to do this.

Your response seems to be that yes, you want character growth feats of a sort, rather than just character growth reflected in the story itself. This sounds extremely tedious outside of very big moments, like getting your eye ripped out by a mid-boss and now you have a magic eye from Mechanus installed - something you can already narrate in very easily. My 4E campaign had characters incorporating adopted NPCs into their attacks, for example. One plant-themed druid PC also merged with the pirate ship after sacrificing themselves to save the captain.

These don't need mechanics to add to the numbers you have to track.

Edit: You CAN if you want to, of course. But it seems redundant.
 
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Your response seems to be that yes, you want character growth feats of a sort, rather than just character growth reflected in the story itself. This sounds extremely tedious outside of very big moments, like getting your eye ripped out by a mid-boss and now you have a magic eye from Mechanus installed - something you can already narrate in very easily. My 4E campaign had characters incorporating adopted NPCs into their attacks, for example. One plant-themed druid PC also merged with the pirate ship after sacrificing themselves to save the captain.

These don't need mechanics to add to the numbers you have to track
I'm not sure whether you didn't actually read what I wrote or whether you are trying to create meanings for words.

So I'm going to ask two questions
  • What do you mean by "character growth feats"?
  • What do you mean by "emotional growth feats"?
And I'm going to point out that a big part of the reason I want things done the way I do is so that the mechanical reflection of character growth (and thus who the characters are) the way I want is largely under the control of the player rather than doled out by the DM. And a second reason is that nothing I am aware I have suggested adds numbers to track. What I've suggested is replacing numbers. So there isn't any actual tracking to be done.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Only for one narrow definition of how to GM... MANY possibilities exist. Some games can accommodate more than one approach (I'm thinking of 4e D&D, which admits of either a classic neotrad GM or a story game scene-framing GM).
That doesn't mean that it's going to generate a healthy impact on the gameplay when the player responsible for shouldering the lion's weight of the game is not able to decide or robbed of the ability to decide something as fundamental as where their prep for an adventure comes to an end or what level of resource burn+recovery is suitable for the encounters they have setup in those plans.

OC/Neo-Trad can be perfectly healthy flavor in an organized play scenario where the player agency is basically zero or a playbypost where the GM can come back in hours/days with a carefully written fully investigated response to abuses. Things start changing when it gets forced into a traditional style ruleset & game where the goal of those around the table is fun of those playing & running the game rather than creating a for profit product intended to entertain the viewers.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
I'm not sure whether you didn't actually read what I wrote or whether you are trying to create meanings for words.

So I'm going to ask two questions
  • What do you mean by "character growth feats"?
  • What do you mean by "emotional growth feats"?
And I'm going to point out that a big part of the reason I want things done the way I do is so that the mechanical reflection of character growth (and thus who the characters are) the way I want is largely under the control of the player rather than doled out by the DM. And a second reason is that nothing I am aware I have suggested adds numbers to track. What I've suggested is replacing numbers. So there isn't any actual tracking to be done.

I acknowledge that classes could be more interesting and less... wizards, so we can move on from that point.
The core of the gap is here is that you seem to think you can't do things which other DMs are already doing without waiting for permission from the books. I don't know if 5E has text somewhere telling DMs that they can't assign little quirks in the system but I doubt it.

You stated: "But it's the mechanical respresentations of character growth (as opposed to power growth) I'm arguing here is the missing part."
Character/Emotional growth feats are a term I threw out because of your reference to mechanics that grow characters without growing power. Call them boons or traits or consequences or weebles or whatever, it comes down to a rule added somewhere that does a thing. May as well call them feats because they serve the same function of being a list item with character changes.
 

I acknowledge that classes could be more interesting and less... wizards, so we can move on from that point.
The core of the gap is here is that you seem to think you can't do things which other DMs are already doing without waiting for permission from the books. I don't know if 5E has text somewhere telling DMs that they can't assign little quirks in the system but I doubt it.
No. The core of the gap is here that you think that the DM should be the one controling the growth of the players' characters. I think that the PCs belong to the players not the DM and that the players shouldn't be having to play "Mother, May I" when their characters learn things.
You stated: "But it's the mechanical respresentations of character growth (as opposed to power growth) I'm arguing here is the missing part."
Character/Emotional growth feats are a term I threw out because of your reference to mechanics that grow characters without growing power. Call them boons or traits or consequences or weebles or whatever, it comes down to a rule added somewhere that does a thing. May as well call them feats because they serve the same function of being a list item with character changes.
So ... allowing the players to change subclasses is adding an entire feat-like system. Riiight.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
No. The core of the gap is here that you think that the DM should be the one controling the growth of the players' characters. I think that the PCs belong to the players not the DM and that the players shouldn't be having to play "Mother, May I" when their characters learn things.

So ... allowing the players to change subclasses is adding an entire feat-like system. Riiight.

So you just mean "let players change subclasses"?
 


Incenjucar

Legend
I mean a range of things - of which that is one. Another one is making character levelling more flexible the way it is for warlocks. A third is more consequences. As I say I've suggested a range of things
Respeccing has a lot of consequences for narrative that could backfire there. Other than that I think I get you now. The consequences stuff still sounds horribly tedious if applied beyond what can already be done. Thank you for the clarification.
 

pemerton

Legend
I have never seen a GM make any key decisions about what the protagonist wants, in any version D&D .

Is this perhaps misstated, or are our experiences really so divergent that you’ve had DMs telling players what thier PC wants?
I've seen a lot of published D&D scenarios which only work on the premise that the players will have their PCs be motivated do some particular thing - chase the villains, rescue the victim, explore the house/cave/dungeon/etc.
 

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