D&D 5E The Gloves Are Off?

[Maxperson]

Im really surprised counterspell didnt come up, but shield did..How do you narrate the counterspelling of a counterspell? Isnt that all retcon too?

Not at all. It's annoying, but not a retcon. The first counterspell never happened, because the second one interrupted it and stopped it.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure, but I hate counterspell.

I've already let my players know that it's banned in the next campaign.

 

[Lanefan]

In the fiction Barnabus the Eldritch would be paying attention to the enemy lich and when he "notices the lich begin casting a spell" he would unleash his own counter spell which interrupts the enemy magic. He is able to do this because he anticipated the spellcasting by his foe and was prepared to intercept it.

But, off to the side is the lich's vampiric bride, Cruella the Wicked. She knows about wizard duals and that counter spells are a thing. She "notices Barnabus begin casting a spell" and unleashes her own counter spell because she was anticipating her opponent taking that action and was ready to go.

Yes, but if there's any logic to all this, by the time Cruella gets her counterspell away it's too late: Barnabus' counter finishes before hers does because it started before hers did.

The logic is the same in both cases....a spellcaster anticipated an enemy taking an action and was prepared to do something about it.

Agreed - but when it's the same spell they have to resolve in the order they're cast or else it's not the same spell. Pure logic.

 

[Voadam]

Yes, but if there's any logic to all this, by the time Cruella gets her counterspell away it's too late: Barnabus' counter finishes before hers does because it started before hers did.

That's easy to narrate so the mechanics work.

A normal spell takes a decent casting time.

A counterspell only requires mimmicking and monkeywrenching a small part of the spell you are countering. You can get it in between the beginning of the casting and the completion.

So countering a counterspell is even quicker than countering a fireball. You can get it in before the first counterspell goes off.

 

[tetrasodium]

Counter spell is a reaction.

In the fiction Barnabus the Eldritch would be paying attention to the enemy lich and when he "notices the lich begin casting a spell" he would unleash his own counter spell which interrupts the enemy magic. He is able to do this because he anticipated the spellcasting by his foe and was prepared to intercept it.

But, off to the side is the lich's vampiric bride, Cruella the Wicked. She knows about wizard duals and that counter spells are a thing. She "notices Barnabus begin casting a spell" and unleashes her own counter spell because she was anticipating her opponent taking that action and was ready to go.

The logic is the same in both cases....a spellcaster anticipated an enemy taking an action and was prepared to do something about it.

Spoiler: 5e playloop

This is the playloop is detailed on page 6 &181 of the PHB:

• Step 1. The DM describes the environment.
• Step 2. The playersdescribe what they want to do.
  • Step 2B: There is no step 2B as the players play their characters not the other way around
• Step 3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers' actions
  • Step 3B: There is no step 3B as it creates a paradox on everything else.

There is no step 2b or 3b "The character does not perform whatever quantum action the character would have had the player declare had the character been playing it's player". On top of that is the problems with action order that @Lanefan raised where you can have a retcon creating a paradox to interrupt a retcon that itself was creating a paradox to interrupt the only action done during the correct step in the playloop.

Other participants would have done things in response to what Barnabus would have done but they didn't because Barnabus didn't actually do them. Other participants likewise would have done something different in response to what Cruella would have done but didn't so they too didn't do something different.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I vote we just let @Lanefan play whatever version of D&D he/she plays, and the rest of us can continue to be unbothered by the temporal implications of reactions. Because no matter how long the issue is debated, that's still going to be the state of things.

 

[Lanefan]

That's easy to narrate so the mechanics work.

A normal spell takes a decent casting time.

A counterspell only requires mimmicking and monkeywrenching a small part of the spell you are countering. You can get it in between the beginning of the casting and the completion.

So countering a counterspell is even quicker than countering a fireball. You can get it in before the first counterspell goes off.

The snag I keep hitting here is the idea of a counterspell being quicker than itself. That's just a non-starter for me.

 

[hawkeyefan]

The snag I keep hitting here is the idea of a counterspell being quicker than itself. That's just a non-starter for me.

Can’t there be more than one version? Or can’t one person do it more quickly than another? Who says your idea of timing is what matters when magic’s involved? Magic breaks the rules… that’s what it does.

 

[Clint_L]

The snag I keep hitting here is the idea of a counterspell being quicker than itself. That's just a non-starter for me.

If you are going to insist that all spells take the exact same amount of time to cast, then yeah, you're always going to have a problem with this rule. I see it more like when they are duelling in Harry Potter and some folks are just faster than others. Fortunately, you're the only one who gets to say what makes sense at your table, so it's all good.

And you gotta go with what works for you. At my table, I ruled that a character's spiritual hammer was dispelled when he went unconscious. RAW is that the hammer would stay out regardless, but it just didn't make sense to me. I feel just fine about overriding the rule.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

The snag I keep hitting here is the idea of a counterspell being quicker than itself. That's just a non-starter for me.

It doesn't make sense a tiny shield helps a tiny creature not get splattered by a Fire Giants 50lb maul but at some point the rules are the rules and you just have to go with it.