D&D General The DM Shortage

[overgeeked]

Yeah. The number of creatures past CR 8 or 9 is just abysmal.

What specific kinds of monsters do you want that high up?

 

[MNblockhead]

Yeah. The number of creatures past CR 8 or 9 is just abysmal.

Well, only about 7% of CR 9 and above monsters are demons, so hardly "just abysmal."

I jest. I jest. Please no comments on the amount of effort I'll take to make a bad pun.

WotC has published 655 monsters CR 9 and above. So, that's really not terrible. I'm not sure that I would make the cut off at CR9, though, since CR9 is not exactly high-level.

From CR 15 to 30, which is half of the CR levels, there are 259 monsters, out of a total of 2,592 monsters. So half of the CR levels only account for about 10% of the monsters, which isn't surprising given that based on the adventures, WotC doesn't seem to expect many people to play much in the 3rd and 4th tiers.

It would really be nice to have a Monster Manual II with CR 15 and above monsters. But if their research is showing few people play higher levels, I doubt they would make a book entirely dedicated to high-level monsters. The best I can hope for is a Level 15-20 adventure or a Yawning Portal type book with high-level adventures.

If you are interested, the number of CR9 and above monsters in all WotC 5e publications available in D&D Beyond are listed below. There is going to be some duplication because I didn't filter out "legacy" sources. I don't see anyway to do so in D&D Beyond. So these numbers are not useful as a count of the total number of unique monsters, but are useful to get an idea of the relative number of higher CR monsters by type. I didn't realize, for example, that there is only on Beast above CR8. And that's misleading because this CR12 beast is a polymorphed spellcaster. I don't want to say more because it is a spoiler to one of the adventures.

Also, one could argue that I should filter on "core D&D" or not include any adventures, or just limit to the monster manual. But in D&D Beyond you can see all monsters for all sources you have access to. So the "Monsters" section of the Game Rules in D&D Beyond is my default Monster Manual.

51 Abominations
1 Beasts
18 Celestials
41 Constructs
90 Dragons
25 Elementals
14 Fey
116 Fiends (44 Devils, 45 Demons, 13 Yugoloths, 14 no subtype)
49 Giants
109 Humanoids
62 Monstrosities
3 Oozes
4 Plants
72 Undead
655 total

 

[Maxperson]

Well, only about 7% of CR 9 and above monsters are demons, so hardly "just abysmal."

I jest. I jest. Please no comments on the amount of effort I'll take to make a bad pun.

WotC has published 655 monsters CR 9 and above. So, that's really not terrible. I'm not sure that I would make the cut off at CR9, though, since CR9 is not exactly high-level.

From CR 15 to 30, which is half of the CR levels, there are 259 monsters, out of a total of 2,592 monsters. So half of the CR levels only account for about 10% of the monsters, which isn't surprising given that based on the adventures, WotC doesn't seem to expect many people to play much in the 3rd and 4th tiers.

It would really be nice to have a Monster Manual II with CR 15 and above monsters. But if their research is showing few people play higher levels, I doubt they would make a book entirely dedicated to high-level monsters. The best I can hope for is a Level 15-20 adventure or a Yawning Portal type book with high-level adventures.

If you are interested, the number of CR9 and above monsters in all WotC 5e publications available in D&D Beyond are listed below. There is going to be some duplication because I didn't filter out "legacy" sources. I don't see anyway to do so in D&D Beyond. So these numbers are not useful as a count of the total number of unique monsters, but are useful to get an idea of the relative number of higher CR monsters by type. I didn't realize, for example, that there is only on Beast above CR8. And that's misleading because this CR12 beast is a polymorphed spellcaster. I don't want to say more because it is a spoiler to one of the adventures.

Also, one could argue that I should filter on "core D&D" or not include any adventures, or just limit to the monster manual. But in D&D Beyond you can see all monsters for all sources you have access to. So the "Monsters" section of the Game Rules in D&D Beyond is my default Monster Manual.

51 Abominations
1 Beasts
18 Celestials
41 Constructs
90 Dragons
25 Elementals
14 Fey
116 Fiends (44 Devils, 45 Demons, 13 Yugoloths, 14 no subtype)
49 Giants
109 Humanoids
62 Monstrosities
3 Oozes
4 Plants
72 Undead
655 total

Yep. Horrible variety. Tons of dragons, fiends, giants, etc. A better way to look at it is by CR. Here is the MM CR 9 list.

1. Bone Devil/Glabrezu. I'm grouping them because essentially the same thing.
2. Clay golem
3. Cloud/fire giant. I'm grouping them because essentially the same thing.
4. Treant
5. Young Blue/Silver Dragon. I'm grouping them because essentially the same thing.

That selection is horrid when you compare it to CR 5.

1. Bulette
2. Earth/Fire/water/air elemental. I'm grouping them because essentially the same thing.
3. Flesh Golem
4. Giant Crocodile/shark. I'm grouping them because essentially the same thing.
5. Gladiator
6. Gorgon
7. Half-red dragon veteran
8. Hill giant
9. Night Hag
10. Otyugh
11. Roper
12. Salamander
13. Shambling Mound
14. Triceratops
15. Troll
16. Unicorn
17. Vampire spawn.
18. Barbed Devil. Out of order because I missed it.
19. Werebear
20. Wraith
21. Xorn


5 choices vs. 21

CR 10 also has 5 choices.
CR 11 has 6.
CR 12 has 2!
CR 13 has 5.
CR 14 is back down to 2.
CR 15 has 3.
CR 16 has 4.

If you go outside the MM you get some more choices, but many, if not most of those are repeat categories. Yet another dragon, fiend, etc., so don't really give more choices or not many more.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Because it's boring as hell to fight a bunch of low level monsters at high level. Once in a while it might be fun to fight 300 orcs at 20th level, but most of the time the group will want to face some high CR challenge, of which there are very, very, VERY few choices in 5e.

Do you not have any of the Kobold Press Tomes or the Creature Codex? Lots of interesting, creative, high level stuff, IMO.

 

[Maxperson]

Do you not have any of the Kobold Press Tomes or the Creature Codex? Lots of interesting, creative, high level stuff, IMO.

No. I don't. How much variety in high level choices do they give? Yet more dragons, fiends, giants, etc. are not what I'm looking for.

 

[Cadence]

No. I don't. How much variety in high level choices do they give? Yet more dragons, fiends, giants, etc. are not what I'm looking for.

What do you want?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, only about 7% of CR 9 and above monsters are demons, so hardly "just abysmal."

I jest. I jest. Please no comments on the amount of effort I'll take to make a bad pun.

WotC has published 655 monsters CR 9 and above. So, that's really not terrible. I'm not sure that I would make the cut off at CR9, though, since CR9 is not exactly high-level.

From CR 15 to 30, which is half of the CR levels, there are 259 monsters, out of a total of 2,592 monsters. So half of the CR levels only account for about 10% of the monsters, which isn't surprising given that based on the adventures, WotC doesn't seem to expect many people to play much in the 3rd and 4th tiers.

It would really be nice to have a Monster Manual II with CR 15 and above monsters. But if their research is showing few people play higher levels, I doubt they would make a book entirely dedicated to high-level monsters. The best I can hope for is a Level 15-20 adventure or a Yawning Portal type book with high-level adventures.

If you are interested, the number of CR9 and above monsters in all WotC 5e publications available in D&D Beyond are listed below. There is going to be some duplication because I didn't filter out "legacy" sources. I don't see anyway to do so in D&D Beyond. So these numbers are not useful as a count of the total number of unique monsters, but are useful to get an idea of the relative number of higher CR monsters by type. I didn't realize, for example, that there is only on Beast above CR8. And that's misleading because this CR12 beast is a polymorphed spellcaster. I don't want to say more because it is a spoiler to one of the adventures.

Also, one could argue that I should filter on "core D&D" or not include any adventures, or just limit to the monster manual. But in D&D Beyond you can see all monsters for all sources you have access to. So the "Monsters" section of the Game Rules in D&D Beyond is my default Monster Manual.

51 Abominations
1 Beasts
18 Celestials
41 Constructs
90 Dragons
25 Elementals
14 Fey
116 Fiends (44 Devils, 45 Demons, 13 Yugoloths, 14 no subtype)
49 Giants
109 Humanoids
62 Monstrosities
3 Oozes
4 Plants
72 Undead
655 total

This is why we need to step outside WotC's prescribed box.

 

[Maxperson]

What do you want?

Variety. I don't want the same narrow categories over and over again. The true giants are just basically harder versions of themselves with a few mostly small differences. A 15 foot tall 4 armed, 3 headed, 2 legged humanoid with fangs might get the giant type, but it's not a giant.

 

[Cadence]

Variety. I don't want the same narrow categories over and over again. The true giants are just basically harder versions of themselves with a few mostly small differences. A 15 foot tall 4 armed, 3 headed, 2 legged humanoid with fangs might get the giant type, but it's not a giant.

I wonder if there are any places out there that have convertied over the PF 1e Bestiaries. Feels like there was quite a bit in them....

 

[MNblockhead]

If you go outside the MM you get some more choices, but many, if not most of those are repeat categories. Yet another dragon, fiend, etc., so don't really give more choices or not many more.

Not sure I agree that some of the groupings you listed are the "same thing". All monsters are grouped into 14 "types". One type of fiend / dragon / ect. can play very differently than another of the same type, even at the same CR level. While I love having even more and more unique monsters, I'm finding that what my games have benefited the most from are more varieties of common types and more interesting tactical abilities.

I've purchased a number of third-party monster manuals, but I find I use so little of their content. Still good for inspiration, but having more monsters is not what I'm really looking for generally. Sure, more high-level monsters helps, but I want more than tweaking hit points, resistances, immunities, or spell casters. I would like more interesting mechanics that make for my dynamic battles. The Mystical trait and actions in Mythic Odysseys of Theros are the only example that comes to mind of WotC delivering this.

I'm really liking what I'm seeing Matt Colville do with his Flee! Mortals: The MCDM Monster Book. Adding Roles as another category for monsters (Ambusher, Artillery, Brute, Minion, Controller,...there are 12 roles), support for 5e's optional flanking rules in the monster states themselves, villain actions, noting signature attacks, shared attacks, overkill attacks, group attacks, and more. Also MCDM is using a different stat block format that makes them much easier to read. I find I can more easily run more dynamic combats with the playtest/sample packets I've seen so far for the Kickstarter and it is the most excited I've been for a monster book since the Monster Manual.

I also really like Kobold Presses monster manuals. I own the first two they released for 5e. They work some unique powers into traditional 5e state blocks. They tend to punch above their CR compared to WotC monsters and tend to be very flavorful and interested. But combats tend to follow the standard 5e combat beats.

I haven't looked closely at Level Up Advanced 5e's monster book. It looks interesting, but I'm not sure I want to commit to new core rules and don't know if the monsters can be run appropriately with bog standard 5e rules.