Just discovered Castles and Crusades

[hedgeknight]

I just went back to the C&C forums and found where I requested the starter pack for a game I demoed. That was in 2010! Can't believe it's been that long ago.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Likewise, I picked up C&C early on. My white box still sits behind me on the shelf. And likewise, it came a long right when I was getting burnt out on 3e.

I agree, OSE is likely what I would go with these days in its place. Though I am more likely to run DCC RPG than OSE, I think OSE is more in line with what C&C does.

I'm glad you found a system you're excited about.
For me, I was an early adopter of C&C - just after their white box and got their first hardcover editions.
I had burned out of 3.x and liked the "going back to my foundations" that C&C offered. Sadly, none in my group would try it.
Today, most of those same friends are into OSE, but it seems that C&C passed us by.

 

[GuyBoy]

Those covers are pure beauty.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I like the party lineup in that picture: three Fighters (or close), one Ranger, and two Thieves (or close).

Nary a Mage in sight...

With class and a half leveling, all of them could be mages.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

We played C&C instead of 4E, converting our campaign from 3E to C&C and eventually to 5E.

C&C captures the AD&D vibe wonderfully, and everything through 3E can be either converted on the fly or just run as-is. (Yes, you can bring your 3E character in wholesale, although they may need to lose the feats and have some of their magic items knocked down a plus or two.)

It has some eccentricities that I'm not 100% in love with -- I really don't understand why the SIEGE Engine is necessary, rather than a standard D20 roll with variable target numbers, and my players could never 100% get their heads around what pseudo-skills they had access to based on their primary stats -- but it scratched my itch in a big way.

And I love, love, love class and a half leveling, which means you can have spelless rangers, paladins and assassins but add spells to them to emulate the 3E versions of the classes very easily. Or one can get even more creative: We had a ranger who had class-and-a-half druid spells, and another ranger who had class-and-a-half cleric spells, who worshiped the Goddess of the Hearth, giving her character a very different feel and focus.

The challenge, of course, is finding other players for it. I suspect the audience is overwhelmingly Generation X and only a subset of those gamers, obviously.

Especially for people who want to use their 1E through 3E material rather than waiting/hoping for a conversion, and don't want to go so far into OSR that they're using to-hit and saving throw matrices again (once was enough for me on those, thanks), C&C is a great choice. I think of it as a classic car rebuilt on a more modern (3E) chassis.

 

[hedgeknight]

It has some eccentricities that I'm not 100% in love with -- I really don't understand why the SIEGE Engine is necessary, rather than a standard D20 roll with variable target numbers, and my players could never 100% get their heads around what pseudo-skills they had access to based on their primary stats -- but it scratched my itch in a big way.

This right here. I'm an old timer and the Siege Engine wore me out. I just don't get it. So...I ignored it and just rolled normally. I'm open to suggestions to help me learn it. I'm seriously considering moving my 5E game to C&C. It's the only way I'm going to continue the game; really not a fan of 5E.

 

[ThrorII]

I really don't understand why the SIEGE Engine is necessary, rather than a standard D20 roll with variable target numbers

And I love, love, love class and a half leveling,

I quickly ditched SIEGE for a standard DC 5-10-15-20-25 system.

We found class and a half was overpowered, compared to standard characters.

 

[Jahydin]

This right here. I'm an old timer and the Siege Engine wore me out. I just don't get it. So...I ignored it and just rolled normally. I'm open to suggestions to help me learn it. I'm seriously considering moving my 5E game to C&C. It's the only way I'm going to continue the game; really not a fan of 5E.

SIEGE is probably my favorite thing to talk about, so don't mind answering any questions you might have. One thing I'll say up front is that it's very "bare bones" by design, making it easy to tweak into exactly what you like.

There is quite a lot of jargon, so I'll just explain it the way I do it if running Rules as Written (RAW):

There is one "Target Number" (TN) for all rolls that determines success for Saves and "Skills": 18
There are a number of things that modify that roll: Prime and Attribute bonus.

Each described here:
Prime: You get 3 attributes (2 if demi-human) at creation that are "Prime". Prime attributes get a +6 to their rolls.
Attribute Bonus: Derived from score. Uses B/X spread (9-12 average).


Since these two things are pretty static, to make things easier you can now just adjust the TN for each attribute and note it on your character sheet.

For instance, a Level 1, Prime STR 16 (+2) character would need 10 or higher (18 - 6 (Prime) - 2 (Attribute Bonus)) to succeed a "typical" Strength challenge.

I said "typical" because there is one final layer of complexity: Challenge Level (CL)!
This is what used to determine how hard the task is. Thankfully, this is usually just the difference between Level/Hit Die of the target in question and the character. In the times you don't have that handy though, you'll need to assign your own number, usually 0-10.

Anyways, this is the number you will need succeed your modified TN by to actually succeed!
BTW, I refer to the number written on your sheet at THCL0, for "To Hit Challenge Level 0".

Okay, that's a lot of words for something that is stupid simple, so lets use a couple examples:

Spoiler: Examples

Let's stat out the rest of our Level 1 character above:
STR* 16 (+2), DEX 12 (+0), CON* 13 (+1), INT 9 (+0), WIS 15 (+1), CHR* 8 (-1)
(X ) is the attribute bonus, * denotes Prime.

Our calculated THCL0 for each would be:
STR [10], DEX [18], CON [11], INT [18], WIS [17], CHR [13]

Character want to arm wrestle the local bully for coin. Bully has 2 HD.
DM: "Give me a STR check to see if you win."
PC: "I rolled a 13, so I beat CL 3 (13 - 10)."
DM: Sees the CL is 1 since the difference in Level/HD is 1 (2 - 1)
DM: "You slam the bully's hand against the table causing him to grimace from the force..."

A Harpy uses Captivating Song to lure the player into doing its bidding! Harpy has 3 HD.
DM: "Give me a CHR check to see if you resist."
PC: "I rolled a 14, so I beat CL 1 (14 - 13)."
DM: Sees the CL is 2 (3 - 1)
DM: *Sorry, the Harpy's song is just too much for you. You lay down your sword and slowly approach the monster."

The character wants to walk a rope strung tight between two raised platforms.
DM: "Give me a DEX check to see if you make it across."
PC: "Oh boy, this is probably a bad idea... Might not help, but I pull out the staff I found and use it to balance."
PC: "I rolled a 13, so -5 CL... I'm guessing I don't make it?"
DM: Doesn't have an exact CL, so goes with 0, but likes the staff idea, so makes it CL -2 to be nice.
DM: "Ha, sorry, not even close. You go tumbling down to the ground and take D6 damage from the fall."

 

[Jahydin]

@amethal

Totally understand your hesitation, but C&C is really just a rule set. Changing the lore to fit your campaign is expected and encouraged.

When it comes to half-orcs, just about every system I've ran pretty much parrots the same lore. Even Pathfinder 2E, so can't really recommend anything else other than ONED&D or LevelUp.

Unless there is some nuance in the other games I'm missing? Be interested in hearing it.

 

[amethal]

@amethal

Totally understand your hesitation, but C&C is really just a rule set. Changing the lore to fit your campaign is expected and encouraged.

When it comes to half-orcs, just about every system I've ran pretty much parrots the same lore. Even Pathfinder 2E, so can't really recommend anything else other than ONED&D or LevelUp.

Unless there is some nuance in the other games I'm missing? Be interested in hearing it.

I appreciate the point you are making, but I seem to be struggling to get mine across.

Lots of RPGs of a certain type have a bit of a downer on half orcs. It's part of the tradition, I don't have to like it, and I can and will change it if I ever play C&C. I complain about it because this is the internet, and also because if there is ever a 2nd edition of C&C (as opposed to repeated printings of effectively the same ruleset) then I hope this is something they address.

I complain about C&C, but not necessarily other RPGs, because C&C Players Handbook is a particularly strongly-worded example.

For instance, compare:

"Hatred: Dwarves receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblinoid subtypes because of their special training against these hated foes." (Pathfinder 1e - note that "orc subtype" includes half-orcs; emphasis mine)

with

"ENMITY (GOBLINS/ORCS): Eternal wars against goblins and orcs have created an undying crucible of hatred for these vile creatures. When in combat against goblins or orcs, this fury and hatred allows dwarves a +1 bonus to hit these creatures. Dwarves have a similar distrust of half-orcs. Dwarves find inter-breeding with goblinoids to be the worst of all sins, and their powerful antipathy towards pure goblinoids negatively affects dwarven relations with half-orcs. Dwarves suffer a -4 to charisma checks when interacting with half-orcs, goblins and orcs." (C&C; emphasis mine)

And while the half-orc entries may appear to be similar (and having actually read the Pathfinder entry for the first time in many years I was surprised by the wording; I hadn't realised the extent to which discrimination was included in the core rules), Pathfinder implies half-orcs are (often, but not always) treated unfairly whereas C&C makes it seem like half-orcs are to blame for the treatment they receive.

"Society: Unlike half-elves, where at least part of society's discrimination is born out of jealousy or attraction, half-orcs get the worst of both worlds: physically weaker than their orc kin, they also tend to be feared or attacked outright by humans who don't bother making the distinction between full orcs and halfbloods. Even on the best of terms, half-orcs in civilized societies are not exactly accepted, and tend to be valued only for their physical abilities. On the other hand, orc leaders have been known to deliberately spawn half-orcs, as the halfbreeds make up for their lack of physical strength with increased cunning and aggression, making them natural leaders and strategic advisors." (Pathfinder 1e)

as opposed to

"PERSONALITY: Half-orcs are unsavory and contentious individuals. As outcasts, they have few friends or allies, and often live miserable and lonely lives, wary of all. Even amongst themselves, there is little trust and great fear, as they jockey for positions of acceptance and status as mercenaries or in more nefarious professions. The social stigma that half-orcs encounter throughout their lives, when combined with the militant aggressiveness of orcs and the competitiveness of humans, produces a nearly fearless warrior and a relentless foe." (C&C)

Curiously, the setting specific Players Guide to Aihrdre is a lot more nuanced.

"RELATIONS: Half-orcs are not commonly found in civilized lands, aside from those of Aenoch, where there is less stigma attached to the cross breed. In Aenoch they are more commonly accepted because of the long rule of Unklar and his common use of orcs. This coupled with that peoples reluctance to apply significance to the gods or their machinations, allows half orcs to travel without being molested. In other realms they are frowned upon. In Kayomor they are viewed as little more than orcs and often imprisoned, banished or worse. Maine is much the same as are many realms that suffered the depredations of those people. However, there are many half orcs who wander the free towns of the Hanse Cities, Gelderland, and other frontier regions. They are generally accepted in orc societies without question."

Still, if the party needs to travel to Kayomor then anyone with a half-orc PC will have to roll up a new character.