D&D (2024) Long rests getting better but GM needs still not being considered

[AnotherGuy]

I feel like I've played systems which work like that, but I can't quite place it. It's not entirely unlike how Spire/Heart work (because a lot of abilities/spells inflict Stress of various kinds on you when you use them).

Yeah I'm sure there are many systems that do something along those lines. It's just a pity WotC let's tradition stand in the way of being innovative and thus forcing the player base to either do their work via homebrew rules or migrating to a different game.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And particularly it's worth noting with the completely asymmetrical way 5E does resources (as opposed to 4E's largely symmetrical approach), it's not uncommon to see a a PC who is out of HP and HD, and the healer is out of heals, even though the Wizard has most of his spells left, and Fiend Warlock literally hasn't taken any damage which wasn't THP.

I was introducing 5e to some peeps at a store and started a campign at 1st level... we had 3 new to TTRPG player 1 new to D&D but had TTRPG and TTWG experence and 2 new to 5e but played older editions... 1 of those 3 new ones was a kid like 8 years old...

we had gone a few games gotten to level 3 and we hit where the fighter rushed in got crit by an attack that took perm hp (until long rest) the ranger went to save him and got dropped to 0 3/4 of that was perm hp (until long rest) and the rest of the party had minor bumps and scratches no one had used any real amount of daily stuff... and we had to ask a completely new table "Do we rest now because our combat characters are down and out, or push on... remembering we ALWAYs before pushed on when casters were out of resources"

Watching this group out of game as a DM for 15 minutes weight not only the options for right now but the implications of if we do this now does it make more sense to have the casters unload big spells early and rest then... blew my mind. 20 years of my experience basicly condensed into this group trying to solve it and then giving up and asking me "What should we do?" and me telling them it depends how they want the game to flow.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

We had someone try to run a campaign like that once and after a bit we just got blase "Oh if we don't rush the prince dies... well if we die the prince dies, so we are taking a rest"

Exactly.

At some point it becomes "Put your mask on first so that you can help others", one of the most basic and practical bits of logic (not instinct, for most people!) out there.

If you're dead, the objective will not be achieved. And a lot of aggressive Doom clocks, the kind where one Long Rest makes a difference, are very fragile, in that in a swingy-ass game like 5E D&D, you can very easily end up, by bad luck or bad ideas or even just misunderstandings, end up in a situation where it's like "Welp...".

D&D just isn't a great game for Doom clocks. I think that's the takeaway really.

I personally don't generally find the players ever abuse the 5MWD, but I what I do find with 5E is that there's no granularity to rests, which comes back to the original purpose of the thread - to give DMs and players some options, mechanically, not try and peer-pressure players into just not using Long Rests even when it make sense lol.

 

[Shiroiken]

I just don't agree.

There's a reason that this isn't a problem in systems that aren't D&D or a close relative thereof.

It doesn't matter if your Doom clock is a buff or not in most TTRPGs, and you don't need to some Vietnam war-era insanity where you "Had to destroy the campaign save it!" (jesus wept lol - but that's genuinely what you seem to be saying).

Just fix the system so long rests aren't so central and OP or make it so that encounter where you blow all your resources actually works okay mechanically.

Nonsense. Any game that has recovery mechanics that aren't tied to some other arbitrary mechanic. such as 13th Age) can easily have this issue. Hell, I've seen the 5MWD occur in 4E, when the benefit was minimal. The only other solution is to have a game mostly with unlimited/at-will abilities, which doesn't fit the feel of D&D for most (see the complaints about 4E).

As for your Vietnam comment, it's not about "saving" the campaign, but saving all of your campaigns. "Jesus wept," if I was a player in your game, I'd have no respect for you and would walk all over your campaign, since there's obviously no consequences. You appear to value your predetermined story more than the game itself, and as a player, I can use that to my own benefit (which is ultimately what the 5MWD is all about).

I think every DM learns to deal with that, sooner or later. Thing is, if it's a problem we can solve directly in the game mechanics (and we can), there's no need to make the DM learning curve steeper than it needs to be.
One of the reason I appreciate 4e over 3e and 5e is that I managed to be a player for years, as anyone in my group was able to DM pretty well with little trouble. Something that can't happen with 3e or 5e.

Yeah, there's a learn curve, but I'm of the opinion that the DMG should, you know, actually teach people how to DM. While I'm not a fan of 4E, the DMG was really good in that it taught the DM how to run the game the way it was intended. The 3E DMG and 5E DMG do not, assuming the DM would figure out their own playstyle with trial and error, since these editions do not have an assumed style of play. IMO the 1D&D DMG should outline the different types of play, and teach DMs how to run them properly.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's because WotC refuses to tie spells/abilities to the exhaustion mechanic via the HD system. If rests recovered HD which could then be used to cast spells then it would be simple. Short Rests recover x HD, Long Rests recover x HD. And then you let the player choose how to spend their HD with higher level spells/class features cost more HD.

my answer (not that any creators care) is to make each spell it's own resource at prep...

I have an 18 caster stat and am level 5 so I can prep 9 spells 1st-3rd. If I prep detect magic as 1 I can cast it at will no slot. If I prep magic missle I can cast it once for free then spend spell slots (or spend spell slots to up cast holding the 1/free) and that free use comes back on a short rest. If I prep Tasha's laugh it takes a spell slot. Then use a modified version of the warlock for spell slots where slots upgrade... at 5th level you have 1 1st 2 2nd and 3 3rd level slots... the 3 slots you have at 3rd started at 1st and 'leveled up'
at 10th level with a 20 caster stat you can prep 14 spells 1st-5th and have 1 3rd level slot 2 4th level slots, and 3 5th level slots per day... this doesn't go up again until 17th level when it becomes 2 3rd 3 4th 4 5th... and you get the equivalent of the arance mystery powers from warlock with no slots just 1/day big booms that prep differently. THis also means at 17th level when you can prep 22 spells 1st-5th you can load up on at will spells and 1/free per short rest spells since you still only have 9 slots per day.

 

[Shiroiken]

Having doom clocks make for a great adventure or two but it gets old...

We had someone try to run a campaign like that once and after a bit we just got blase "Oh if we don't rush the prince dies... well if we die the prince dies, so we are taking a rest"

Then the king declares them outlaws for failing to save his son. Now the party has to deal with bounty hunters and assassins because of it.

While an actual Doom Clock gets old, there should normally be consequences for taking a rest. If there's not, then you designed the adventure to assume they will rest at that point (whether you intended it or not). The bad guys should not remain static, waiting in their default location until the party runs across them, but should be reacting. If the party attacks a dungeon, then leaves, they should shore up their defenses, possibly including traps, patrols, increased guards, etc. Remember: if the party does a full 8 hour adventuring day, that leaves 16 hours to respond, so if they do less than an hour a day, they have almost 24 hours to respond (and you can get a lot done in a day, if you put your mind to it).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Nonsense. Any game that has recovery mechanics that aren't tied to some other arbitrary mechanic. such as 13th Age

Why say nonsense then agree with what I said? That's a close relative of D&D, as I said and you quoted.

if I was a player in your game, I'd have no respect for you and would walk all over your campaign, since there's obviously no consequences

Sorry, no that's laughable.

The only sort of player that behaves like that is one who has severe and genuine social problems, frankly, that go far beyond "abusing 5MWD". You don't attempt to destroy someone's campaign because they're not aggressive enough about 5MWDs. That's like 4Chan behaviour. Any player behaving that badly is going to be causing you so many other problems.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Then the king declares them outlaws for failing to save his son. Now the party has to deal with bounty hunters and assassins because of it.

if the king has access to bounty hunters and assassins as good or better then the PCs they will just point out "WHERE were THEY?!?! eithier they should have been with us helping, or send them instead."

While an actual Doom Clock gets old, there should normally be consequences for taking a rest.

yeah but most examples are like your above one "lets make an illogical more powerful threat"

my answer would be "the prince dies now you have to explain WHY you failed... not under punishments, but under the queens hysterical tears.

If there's not, then you designed the adventure to assume they will rest at that point (whether you intended it or not). The bad guys should not remain static, waiting in their default location until the party runs across them, but should be reacting.

this NEVER ends well in the long wrong with my group.

If the party attacks a dungeon, then leaves, they should shore up their defenses, possibly including traps, patrols, increased guards, etc. Remember: if the party does a full 8 hour adventuring day, that leaves 16 hours to respond, so if they do less than an hour a day, they have almost 24 hours to respond (and you can get a lot done in a day, if you put your mind to it).

Kurt and Rachel used to call that "Ever full XP tanks" you leave and can redo the same dungeon knowing the basic lay out with refreshed guards... no need to find a new one no need to go to the next level just MORE xp"

 

[Ruin Explorer]

yeah but most examples are like your above one "lets make an illogical more powerful threat"

my answer would be "the prince dies now you have to explain WHY you failed... not under punishments, but under the queens hysterical tears.

Exactly. This guy roleplays.

 

[overgeeked]

As someone who has played and DMed 3e, 4e and 5e extensively, it really wasn't. The biggest difference was the language used and the mechanics > fluff approach.

Most of your resources being daily recharge (everything but 4E) and most of your resources being encounter recharge (4E) was a huge shift. One that allowed for the game to actually be balanced for a change. Also splitting non-combat from combat magic was a big help. So was calling out class roles and designing the role first then fitting the fiction of the class to that really helped. Etc.