D&D (2024) Fixing short rest novaloops is important... using the moon druid

[Jefe Bergenstein]

If it was such a simple thing why is something like that not in any of the UA rules glossary resting entries?

For me though... Yes and no. It resulted in a lot of bad blood & between session venom brewing from players who felt they were being singled out by making a couple classes "unplayable" as of S0. Unfortunately it's a lot easier for those players to make the case that the GM is being unreasonable while quietly convincing casual players e who don't dig deep into the rules to see that too many short rests are excessive because there is a kernel of truth to those classes needing some.

Fair points. I do think they could codify it somewhat. Clear rules help set expectations, and WOTC can help in explaining the why of it. I get wanting the game designers on your side.

I ran into something like this last night in my PF2E game. The equivalent of short rests are 10 minutes, allowing you time to refocus to get the equivalent of encounter spells back, get ready to receive medicine healing, etc. They were being pursued by hounds of Tindalos which would start their baying and popping out of right angles bit every time they sat down. The amount of griping from grown ups over being denied an easy rest for the first time the entire campaign was kind of amazing. So I feel ya.

 

[tetrasodium]

Fair points. I do think they could codify it somewhat. Clear rules help set expectations, and WOTC can help in explaining the why of it. I get wanting the game designers on your side.

I think that it's just an attempt to have it both ways & blame the GM. The other parallel back & forth demonstrates there are a lot of players who view anything less than on demand no consequence rests some kind of effort to force SR classes entirely into being full LR classes. At that point it's an impossible mountain of half truths & splitting hairs

I ran into something like this last night in my PF2E game. The equivalent of short rests are 10 minutes, allowing you time to refocus to get the equivalent of encounter spells back, get ready to receive medicine healing, etc. They were being pursued by hounds of Tindalos which would start their baying and popping out of right angles bit every time they say down. The amount of griping from grown ups over being denied an easy rest for the first time the entire campaign was kind of amazing. So I feel ya.

Lol I ran into something like that after a group decided that the best way to kill an elemental needed to craft a fire resist item was to attack a shamanist temple rather than deal with a slightly tougher dragon* They were outraged that I just pulled fiat and declared how bugs/rats/etc kept interrupting their efforts to rest in the temple after killing everyone inside.

* they had sold like 3-4 armors with it at that point and were outraged at me for not telling them they might need to fight the nearby dragon I kept ,mentioning

 

[tetrasodium]

looks to me like I did indeed say “capping out at,” just like I said I did.

Yes, because again, I was talking about the floor and the cap, counting on the reader’s’ ability to understand context and realize the implication of a growth between that floor and that cap.

Ok?

No you are still avoiding the point that you are ignoring everything in between. A PC being kinda super at level 17 power might not be too meaningful because everyone is pretty darned super at that point, but that doesn't mean that you can ignore the six levels prior to that while leaning on the first ten or so as the other extreme.

No, they gain more than one thing. That’s perfectly ok for them to do.

My friend, you were the one who posed the question why limit the abilities’ usage at all if the limits are built to be worked around. That was my answer. You could absolutely design the class without those limits if you were of a mind to, but that might run into problems of class feel and backwards compatibility.

Nah, giving at-will and long-rest-reliant classes a bit of a benefit from a short rest is fine. Everyone will have reason to want to take a short rest, and some will get more from it than others, just as everyone has reason to want to take a long rest, and some benefit more from that than others. And every class has its own unique resource management style, so the sameyness everyone complained about in 4e is avoided. This is the best of all worlds.

was it not you who said "I am willing to grant that this could theoretically become a problem if pushed hard enough" in regards to one class benefitting from a short rest so much more than another that it creates a problem? You've done so much to shift discussion away from how the playtest packet short rest classes very much reach that sort of excess given the current rest rules in those packets.

 

[mellored]

I'd like to see rogues recover something on a short rest in their subclasses. Same with Rangers. I'd even like to see Arcane Recovery switched to every short rest for wizards.

Suggestions for the rogue?

 

[tetrasodium]

Suggestions for the rogue?

Rogue doesn't really have any limits that could be recovered there in the UA version(s?) we've seen... they would need to make some changes to squeeze in something I think. Best I got is something like this: PB/short rest you can activate your sneak attack against creatures with no discernible anatomies that are normally immune to sneak attack (undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures)

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Suggestions for the rogue?

I honestly like action surge and some sort of short-term consumable generation. Quick deploy traps, poisons, McGruber gadgets?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Rogue doesn't really have any limits that could be recovered there in the UA version(s?) we've seen... they would need to make some changes to squeeze in something I think. Best I got is something like this: PB/short rest you can activate your sneak attack against creatures with no discernible anatomies that are normally immune to sneak attack (undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures)

I don't think sneak attack immunity is a thing in 5E like it was in 3E or precision immunity in PF2E.

 

[tetrasodium]

I don't think sneak attack immunity is a thing in 5E like it was in 3E or precision immunity in PF2E.

Yea I don't think there are any monsters that have it or similar, but bringing it back on sneak attack itself from old editions would do a lot to differentiate relevant monsters while also giving rogue some room for SR recovery things

 

[Charlaquin]

No you are still avoiding the point that you are ignoring everything in between.

I’m not ignoring everything in-between, I just didn’t mention it because I figured it went without saying that in the levels leading up to 17 the number of spell slots would increase gradually to 4 rather than suddenly jumping there.

We’ve had 10 years of Warlocks getting 3 slots per short rest from levels 11 to 16, and 10 years of warlocks not being overpowered. Nothing about that has changed in the latest playtest.

A PC being kinda super at level 17 power might not be too meaningful because everyone is pretty darned super at that point, but that doesn't mean that you can ignore the six levels prior to that while leaning on the first ten or so as the other extreme.

Warlocks are perfectly in line with other classes during levels 11 to 16.

was it not you who said "I am willing to grant that this could theoretically become a problem if pushed hard enough" in regards to one class benefitting from a short rest so much more than another that it creates a problem?

It was.

You've done so much to shift discussion away from how the playtest packet short rest classes very much reach that sort of excess given the current rest rules in those packets.

I haven’t done anything to shift the conversation, I’ve simply made the case that warlocks have not reached that sort of excess. Again, they have exactly the same spell slot progression in the latest packet as they do in the 2014 PHB, just with Magical Cunning now giving them one more spell slot per day from level 2-10 and 2 more per day from level 11 up.

Monks, on the other hand, have gotten significant improvements to how much they can do between short rests in the latest playtest. And I think pretty much everyone would agree that those improvements were badly needed, because monks have been significantly underpowered since 2014. They haven’t been pushed to the point of being overpowered, they’ve been adjusted to actually keep up with other classes.

 

[tetrasodium]

I’m not ignoring everything in-between, I just didn’t mention it because I figured it went without saying that in the levels leading up to 17 the number of spell slots would increase gradually to 4 rather than suddenly jumping there.

We’ve had 10 years of Warlocks getting 3 slots per short rest from levels 11 to 16, and 10 years of warlocks not being overpowered. Nothing about that has changed in the latest playtest.

It's extremely relevant when you skip over the point in their advancement that contradicts both your earlier statement about how many spells they get as well as meeting the crawford quote about hitting the 5th level version of a spell over & over & over again to a T then try to block any discussion of that point as a merely implied thing unworthy of discussion.

The 2014 warlock (and monk)is also broken as heck late tier2 early tier3 on if they are able to force too many short rests, you might look back at the points you kept trying to avoid & dismiss for details on that. Referencing what they could do in the 2014 ruleset doesn't change that

Warlocks are perfectly in line with other classes during levels 11 to 16.

No not really. Take a level 11 warlock It has three 5th level slots & gets up to three more every short rest. Conveniently they can usually burn off at least one or two. On top of that they also have a bunch of at will & always on stuff from invocations like at will agonizing repelling blast for another 4th or 5th level spell equivalent using the DMG284 guidelines.

It was.


I haven’t done anything to shift the conversation, I’ve simply made the case that warlocks have not reached that sort of excess. Again, they have exactly the same spell slot progression in the latest packet as they do in the 2014 PHB, just with Magical Cunning now giving them one more spell slot per day from level 2-10 and 2 more per day from level 11 up.

Monks, on the other hand, have gotten significant improvements to how much they can do between short rests in the latest playtest. And I think pretty much everyone would agree that those improvements were badly needed, because monks have been significantly underpowered since 2014. They haven’t been pushed to the point of being overpowered, they’ve been adjusted to actually keep up with other classes.

That holds true if monk could not get enough rests. It's very much not true if they have too many rests after they had/have a larger enough pool to at will their ki/discipline pool while getting too many rests