D&D 5E Is stoneskin underpowered?

[jaelis]

Also, time stop itself is a weak spell, except perhaps when you do want to run away. A prismatic wall would probably serve better.

 

[Gadget]

You dont. You cast dispell the turn after the mage time stops and puts up all his buffs, thus wasting his only 9th level spell, his action, and any spell slots he's also used on himself for buffs (including the aforementioned crappy stone skin, which will likely have fallen off anyway because, again, it requires concentration).

In previous editions this was less an issue due to time stop allowing offensive setups. Now I cant even so much as summon a pit or cloudkill to harm the players when time resumes, doing so ends the spell early. Time stop is now strictly speaking an "oh crap I've been ambushed, time to put up my buffs or run away" spell (the latter of which I dont see an archmage doing on the literal first turn of a fight against what should be *much* weaker casters and their lackies).

I'm not sure Timestop is even useful for buffs, since most (though not all) buffs are concentration spells and you can't layer them on like previous editions. So at most, you would be able to quaff a potion or two and cast a single buff (maybe two if you have a non-concentration one). Given its use as an "Oh crap" type spell, the severe offensive limitations, concentration reducing buffing, they should have made it a reaction to cast.

Also, time stop itself is a weak spell, except perhaps when you do want to run away. A prismatic wall would probably serve better.

Agreed.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

I'm not sure Timestop is even useful for buffs, since most (though not all) buffs are concentration spells and you can't layer them on like previous editions. So at most, you would be able to quaff a potion or two and cast a single buff (maybe two if you have a non-concentration one). Given its use as an "Oh crap" type spell, the severe offensive limitations, concentration reducing buffing, they should have made it a reaction to cast.



Agreed.

Mind blank, mage armor, mirror image, fire shield, and either stone skin or globe of invulnerability all stack to make a devastating defensive combo. The first two buffs should already up before combat, and the last two I listed are both concentration. I'll concede that the latter is immune to all but high level dispell magics, but at the cost of the damage reduction given by stone skin. Time stop is on average going to give him 3 rounds or so, which gives him the option to get up at least two of the options above and do an offensive action to end the spell.

Casting a prismatic wall is indeed a great option, but if we start swapping out spells from the base creature, it adjusts the challenge rating of the creature substantially. If I really wanted to kill my players I'd just have him cast invulnerability anyway, and I like to maintain the illusion that 9th level spells are rare, as it forces players to go forth on quests to find and learn them.

My gripe is that the base creature is *not* a CR 12 as it indicates due to stone skin being a crappy spell because of the limitations of concentration, and a crippling weakness to an OP spell (dispell magic).

 

[CapnZapp]

Enemy casters don't bother with Stoneskin. They are painfully aware heroes are very likely to do magic damage.

 

[jaelis]

My gripe is that the base creature is *not* a CR 12 as it indicates due to stone skin being a crappy spell because of the limitations of concentration, and a crippling weakness to an OP spell (dispell magic).

It sounds like your concern is more specific to the archmage 'monster' than the dispel magic mechanics in general? There are many gripes to be made about CR assignments. Here I think it works much much better with some minions around, and I think that it has time stop precisely as an escape mechanism to serve as a BBEG. In other words, I think that if a MM archmage did end up in a solo fight with the PCs, it absolutely should cast time stop and then escape. Come back with a bunch of minions and the CR might seem a little more accurate.

they should have made it a reaction to cast.

That's a good idea, it makes it more worthwhile and focuses better on what the spell is actually good for. It would need a trigger though. Perhaps the version below. That seems fairly legit for a 9th level spell, pretty much lets you get out of anything. Still vulnerable to counterspell but that's an issue for any high level spell.

Time Stop
9th-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you can take any time you take damage or are targeted by a spell.
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous

You briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself. No time passes for other creatures, while you take 1d4 + 1 turns in a row, during which you can use actions and move as normal. The triggering effect is not resolved until after this spell ends. If you are no longer a valid target at that time, then you are not affected by it.

This spell ends immediately if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you. In addition, the spell ends if you move to a place more than 1,000 feet from the location where you cast it.

 

[Ristamar]

That's a good idea, it makes it more worthwhile and focuses better on what the spell is actually good for. It would need a trigger though. Perhaps the version below. That seems fairly legit for a 9th level spell, pretty much lets you get out of anything. Still vulnerable to counterspell but that's an issue for any high level spell.

Time Stop
9th-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you can take any time you take damage or are targeted by a spell.
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous

You briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself. No time passes for other creatures, while you take 1d4 + 1 turns in a row, during which you can use actions and move as normal. The triggering effect is not resolved until after this spell ends. If you are no longer a valid target at that time, then you are not affected by it.

This spell ends immediately if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you. In addition, the spell ends if you move to a place more than 1,000 feet from the location where you cast it.

I proposed a similar tweak in a Timestop thread a couple of years ago, turning it into a defensive reaction spell. Great for those "I gotta save myself/my friends at the last microsecond" cinematic moments.

---

TIME STOP

9th-level transmutation

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you may take at any time

Range: Self

Components: V

Duration: Instantaneous

You briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself. No time passes for other creatures, while you take 1d4 + 1 turns in a row, during which you can use actions and move as normal. Any previous effects, attack rolls, ability checks, or saving throws that affected any creature or object on the turn you cast Time Stop are not resolved until the flow of time resumes. This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you. In addition, the spell ends if you move to a place more than 1,000 feet from the location where you cast it.

 

[jaelis]

Hah you deserve priority then But I can't say I'm a huge fan of reactions "you can take at any time." While sleeping? When my evil ally decides to attack me? When the treasure of Smaug is left unguarded? I feel like it works better if there is a fairly direct, observable trigger.

 

[Ristamar]

Hah you deserve priority then But I can't say I'm a huge fan of reactions "you can take at any time." While sleeping? When my evil ally decides to attack me? When the treasure of Smaug is left unguarded? I feel like it works better if there is a fairly direct, observable trigger.

In retrospect, the "which you may take at any time" part is superfluous. In terms of the timing of the casting, it functions the same as the Shield spell.

 

[Gadget]

I would kinda like the trigger for Time Stop to be when you or an ally you can see take damage or are targeted by a spell. This way it could be more of "Oh did not just Disintegrate the cleric!" type of spell. But maybe that is too open/abusable?

 

[Haron]

On this note, has anyone done a guide, or even had an extended discussion, on what spells are particularly effective in the hands of NPC opponents? I'd be interested in reading that.

Dominate person. I bet most parties hate when the bad guys use that on their barbarian...