Going Nuclear:1D&D

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't actually believe that fan backlash ended 4e. It certainly had a lot to do with Paizo's rise in popularity, but I don't think 4e would have lasted the years it did if fan backlash were primary concern. I think the end of 4e had more to do with the degree to which the core mechanics of the 4th edition system was prone to issues needing frequent errata.

i disagree. I feel 4e was the best edition even prior to errata and each frequent update showed a love for fine tuneing.

 

[TheSword]

It cracks me up. This forum has been 80% D&D 5e for the last 3-5 years. I’ve lost track of the number of people who have said they can’t find Folks to play any other game than 5e.

Basically if all the people that say they’re boycotting 5e and One D&D, actual do… then it’s going to be awfully quiet around here.

 

[Michael Linke]

I would agree that I don't know what "going nuclear" means in this context. I think it just means not buying stuff from wotc if you don't like they way they are conducting their business. Likewise, no one is who is so-criticizing wotc is able to make your "life's passion...fade into obscurity." That's equally hyperbolic.

In fact, the only things that will be 'fading into obscurity' will be those products that relied on the OGL. For example, my favorite OSR game, Whitehack 3e, has paused sales, and my other favorite game/company, Old School Essentials by Necrotic Gnome, has a much anticipated kickstarter in the works that is in jeopardy. Hopefully they'll figure out a way around the OGL. Nevertheless, you can remain blissfully unaware of the existence of these and many other 3pp and free to keep playing your official wotc-approved version of dnd, aka your "life's passion."

My preferred edition is actually BECMI, and DriveThruRPG has me covered as long as WotC is happy to sell the classics POD. I own the OSE Classic and Advanced books and Greg Gillespie's mega dungeons, and bought everything from New Big Dragon Games/Richard LeBlanc on Lulu today just in case it goes away with the new OGL, but of those three, i would think only Necrotic Gnome is likely to have to worry about hitting the $750k threshold to pay royalties and, while I appreciate the production value of OSE Classic, i think "faithful" retro clones like that stretch the spirit of what the OGL was meant to allow.

I never said I only support official WotC approved D&D, I said that I'm very skeptical of the idea that many studios who will be subject to royalties don't also have the resources to reduce their reliance on the OGL.

Someone elsewhere mentioned that many third party publishers sell for very low margis, to the point that a 20% royalty might mean selling at a loss. It wouldn't be unreasonable for WotC to try to tweak the licensing agreement in a way to prevent third parties from undercutting them like that. They probably very much don't want their competition being able to undercut them on a given product so aggressively, and the royalty might be more about forcing small publishers to sell at prices WotC can compete than it is about WotC making cash off the royalties. Accomplishing this with a price-fixing agreement would have been illegal, but a royalty structure might accomplish the same thing legally.

Edit: And yes, of course some of my posts have been hyperbolic. I was trying to match the hyperbolic energy i see coming from the anti-wotc wing of this debate in hopes it makes clear how awkward it is to talk about games when half the community is so revved up.

 

[mamba]

people think activism is organizing a boycott because the previously free thing their games publishing companies needs to function might not stay free for ever.

they went from record year to record year so the whole ‘WotC is forced to do this as they are otherwise doomed’ line is ignoring the facts

 

[Michael Linke]

i disagree. I feel 4e was the best edition even prior to errata and each frequent update showed a love for fine tuneing.

I don't know that I can support "best edition ever". It was a great system design. It was a fun game to play. But the amount of time and energy spent on maintaining that system with balance and errata was unsustainable from a business perspective. Hasbro likely wanted design staff to start working on other projects, but the game was constantly in need of fixing and rebalancing.

For business reasons, a game less focused on inter-object interactions and game balance is just easier to produce and support. As I said, fan backlash didn't kill 4e. I think the labor cost of maintaining it with errata led to the desire to replace it.

 

[mamba]

Whataboutism would be if I said "why boycott Hasbro when what Blizzard did is just as bad?" An accusation that trivial matters are exaggerated in importance, and that passion to right wrongs can be better channeled elsewhere entirely isn't "whataboutism".

ok, so what are you doing about the Ukraine war? Or is this just something you wave in front of our eyes to distract us…

 

[Michael Linke]

they went from record year to record year so the whole ‘WotC is forced to do this as they are otherwise doomed’ line is ignoring the facts

Never said anything about them being doomed. They don't have to be staring down certain doom to rethink how generous they are with their competition. The new OGL still lets a devoted fan sell $50,000 worth of books a year without even worrying about financial reporting. That's pretty generous.

Is it as generous as the OGL 1.0a? Of course not.

 

[mamba]

Never said anything about them being doomed. They don't have to be staring down certain doom to rethink how generous they are with their competition.

yeah, misread that, took the ‘need to function’ to refer to WotC, but it doesn’t

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't know that I can support "best edition ever".

I mean I assume we all have our own ranking of what edition we like best... I did go out of the way to say it's how I feel.

It was a great system design. It was a fun game to play. But the amount of time and energy spent on maintaining that system with balance and errata was unsustainable from a business perspective.

I don't think they were spending that much time on it... as they playtested new races and classes and watched other players (maybe even some on here) they came up with fixes.

Hasbro likely wanted design staff to start working on other projects, but the game was constantly in need of fixing and rebalancing.

I think you are overselling what was going on with new feats, new feedback and trying to dial in the best possible game.

For business reasons, a game less focused on inter-object interactions and game balance is just easier to produce and support.

if they would just come out and admit that balance doesn't work for them I would respect them more.

As I said, fan backlash didn't kill 4e. I think the labor cost of maintaining it with errata led to the desire to replace it.

and again I do not agree with YOUR feelings

 

[Malmuria]

Never said anything about them being doomed. They don't have to be staring down certain doom to rethink how generous they are with their competition. The new OGL still lets a devoted fan sell $50,000 worth of books a year without even worrying about financial reporting. That's pretty generous.

Is it as generous as the OGL 1.0a? Of course not.

...and (reportedly) giving wotc complete ownership over everything they produce and the ability to change the terms of the license with 30 days notice.

I said that I'm very skeptical of the idea that many studios who will be subject to royalties don't also have the resources to reduce their reliance on the OGL.

Hopefully! But the way wotc is going about this feels like a rugpull. I don't think it can even really be about the money, because the amount 3pp generate is very small compared to wotc's revenue. So it does currently feel like they are just trying to bully small publishers out of the business entirely.