Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e Newbie with questions.

[fjw70]

I guess I don’t see it as being a clumsy description. i think the keys words are more confusing and clumsy. But that’s me. YMMV.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I guess I don’t see it as being a clumsy description. i think the keys words are more confusing and clumsy. But that’s me. YMMV.

Different people see things differently, but I've got to say for all its problems, I think PF2e is a hell of a lot clearer on this topic (hidden opponents) than D&D3.5 was at least, and clearer than most games I'm familiar with.

 

[fjw70]

Not to be all negative I do like a lot of the things I see with PF2. I am very intrigued by the three action economy and I really like the different degrees of success/failure on things like saves.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Hey, what bothers you bothers you man. I don't even really hold the things that some PF1e fans dislike about PF2e against them, and some of them are expectations that I don't think do good things for a game on the whole.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Not to be all negative I do like a lot of the things I see with PF2. I am very intrigued by the three action economy and I really like the different degrees of success/failure on things like saves.

It's no problem. I've been trying to think up better wording for that situation for a while and it's just very difficult without getting wordy because it's easy to quickly understand how the situations are different, but hard to give one-word keywords that don't somehow overlap with other words you might use. Like, if you change it to be "Undetected" and "Detected", that becomes weird when you think of the idea of "Hidden" in that regard.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It's no problem. I've been trying to think up better wording for that situation for a while and it's just very difficult without getting wordy because it's easy to quickly understand how the situations are different, but hard to give one-word keywords that don't somehow overlap with other words you might use. Like, if you change it to be "Undetected" and "Detected", that becomes weird when you think of the idea of "Hidden" in that regard.

Its not the first complaint I've seen directed at that rules subsection, either. I've just seen too many other games where the handling of that was muddy as can be to hold it against them that they decided to have different terms for the three situations.

 

[Yaarel]

They are two very different states, the problem is that there isn't really a good terminology to distinguish them. Unnoticed is that no one suspects anyone is there. Undetected is that you know something is there, but you have no clue where it is. Hidden is that you have a rough idea of where something is, and observed is that you know where it is.

Unnoticed: "I'm alone in the room."

Undetected: "I am not alone in the room."

Hidden: "There is someone behind the boxes over there."

Observed: "I can see someone behind the blue box over there."

These are important distinctions.

• Perfect stealth
• Something is off − Spidey sense is tingling − odd sound − I think we arent alone
• I can narrow down the location
• I plainly see the stealther

I agree the nomenclature is difficult to convey the distinctions.

Personally, I would have used the term "undetected" for perfect stealth.

Then for the Spidey sense, maybe use the term "alarming". So the stealther is still unlocated but people are now on alert.

If I understand, the Detect Magic spell is more like Spidey tingling, you know magic is present, but no idea where?

Is narrowing down the location, similar to an "imprecise sense", like the sense of smell?




These are helpful distinctions, conceptually.

Is there something similar for illusion checks?

• No clue that an illusion is happening
• Something seems "not quite right"
• It is an illusion, but unsure what the truth is
• No longer see the illusion, or else clearly distinguish between illusion and truth.

 

[glass]

Personally, I think Paizo should have done it first, so they could have built on its better text instead of what they released for the Core Rulebook.

I suspect that the better wording in the BB (I am taking your word for it that it is actually better, as I have not looked at it) is a result of their having written it once before in the CRB (or in some cases possibly twice before counting the playtest).

They are two very different states, the problem is that there isn't really a good terminology to distinguish them. Unnoticed is that no one suspects anyone is there. Undetected is that you know something is there, but you have no clue where it is. Hidden is that you have a rough idea of where something is, and observed is that you know where it is.

The only problem I can see with it is that Undetected is severely misnamed. It should be "Detected" without the "Un"!

 

[kenada]

I suspect that the better wording in the BB (I am taking your word for it that it is actually better, as I have not looked at it) is a result of their having written it once before in the CRB (or in some cases possibly twice before counting the playtest).

I suspect it’s also due to trying to write for a younger/different audience. That audience should have been the default. Even older or experienced players are helped by having easy to read and parse rules. As for the text itself, see below.

The hide status stuff is baked into the Hide and Sneak actions in the Beginner Box (see below). Compare to the version of Hide and Sneak from the CRB. The conditions used by the core rules are meant to accommodate different senses and expansion, but they read like a soup of jargon.

Hide (1 Action)
[ Secret ]
You huddle behind cover or deeper into concealment to hide yourself. You must have standard cover or have the concealed condition to Hide, and you gain any circumstance bonus from standard cover to your Stealth check. Lesser cover isn’t sufficient to Hide. The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you’re trying to Hide from.

Success The creature can’t see you. If it could see you before, it still knows roughly your position until you Sneak (see below) to move elsewhere. If it tries to target you while it can’t see you and only knows your position, it has to succeed at a DC 10 flat check or it fails to target you.
Failure The creature can still see you.

Sneak (1 Action)
[ Move ] [ Secret ]
When you’ve successfully hidden from someone using Hide, you can Sneak to move to another place so they don’t know where you are. Stride up to half your Speed. At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result of the Perception DC of each creature that couldn’t see you but knew where you were at the start of your movement. If you have standard cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your Stealth check. You can roll against a creature only if, at the end of your Stride, you have standard cover or the concealed condition; otherwise, it sees you.

Success The creature can’t see or hear you during your movement and doesn’t know where you are after you stop moving.
Failure A telltale sound or other sign gives your position away. The creature still can’t see you, but it knows where you are.
Critical Failure You’re spotted! The creature can see you.

What happens when you stop sneaking is baked into the Sneak action in the core rules, but it’s a separate sidebar in the Beginner Box.

Ending Stealth
You stop being hidden from a creature if you move to a place where you no longer have cover from it, or if you use any actions other than Hide, Sneak, or Step. A creature you’re hidden from has the flat-footed condition against you, taking a −2 circumstance penalty to AC against your attacks. If you attempt to Strike the creature, it has the flat-footed condition against that one attack, but then it sees you.

Creatures can use the Seek action to try to find you, as described (later in the Beginner Box Hero’s Handbook). If they find you, you have to successfully Hide again to become hidden once more.

Invisibility
If you’re invisible (due to the invisibility wizard spell, for instance), you can’t be seen. You get the benefit of a successful check to Hide all the time. That means if anything would let a creature see you (like critically failing a check to Sneak), the creature knows where you are but can’t see you. You can Sneak while invisible without needing to Hide first.

This is how I would phrase things. I try to use the conditions naturally rather than just saying you gain them. I also rely on the system’s structure for presenting actions and the tags and assume that the opposite of “undetected” is “detected”. A secret action implicitly says the GM rolls, so it doesn’t need to be repeated. It clutters the text to include those instructions every time. I would also keep the stuff on losing your conditions in a separate sidebar. It really hurts clarity having it crammed in after the results (especially if you’re using some other action that gives you those conditions and need to look up the information in that sidebar).

Hide (1 Action)
[ Secret ]
Requirements: You must have standard cover, greater cover, or the concealed condition.
You huddle behind cover or deeper into concealment to hide yourself. You gain any circumstance bonus from cover to your Stealth check. The result of your Stealth check is compared to the Perception DC of each creature you are trying to Hide from.

Success If the creature could observe you, you are now hidden from it. If you were already hidden or undetected, you remain so.
Failure The creature can still observe you.

Sneak
[ Move ] [ Secret ]
Requirements: You are hidden or undetected.
You attempt to move to another place undetected. Stride up to half your speed. You may instead use another form of movement if you have that (such as Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming), but you still must move no more than half your speed. The result of your Stealth check is compared to the Perception DC of each creature that could possibly observe or detect you. This check is automatically a critical failure if you do not meet the requirements to Hide at the end of your movement. If it is impossible for a creature to observe you, a critical failure becomes just a failure.

Success You are undetected by the creature during your movement and at the end of your movement.
Failure You give away your position. If you were undetected before trying to Sneak, you no longer are to the creature. You remain hidden during and at the end of your movement.
Critical Failure You’re spotted! The creature observes you during and at the end of your movement.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

I do wish there were a lighter version of the game that had the same core mechanics.

The Beginner's Box does exactly this, by paring down the game to three ancestries, 4 classes, and providing prebuilt leveling which makes it a very ideal entry point for new players.