It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[Bacon Bits]

From my memory, people were mostly wanting to play World of Warcraft.

That, too, but that's not the only thing that happened. It's certainly not the tack of the forum discussions I remember from back then.

But I remember 4e being criticized for being WoW just like I remember 3e being criticized for being Diablo. I vaguely seem to recall 2e AD&D being criticized as being too much like the gold box games. It seems D&D players have always tried to gatekeep "real" role-players from people who just like combat. I'd like to think we're a little more tuned in to that in 2023.

Especially because everyone knows the rollplayers are playing Pathfinder 2e.

 

[ECMO3]

There has been a line of argumentation here that has disturbed me surrounding how choosing not to buy from WotC affects 3pp. So let's be clear about something: If I as a consumer choose to buy products from WotC, Third Party Publishers do not see a single cent of that money. WotC gets all of that money. Third Party Publishers do not. If anyone chooses to boycott WotC products, then that has no bearing on whether they spend money supporting Third Party Publishers. It really only matters if they choose to buy Third Party Products via DMsGuild.

A couple points. First that depends on exactly what WOTC product you buy. Third Party publishers did receive money from Acquisition Incoprorated and Call of the Netherdeep as well as D&D novels and tons of WOTC-licensed content from DMs Guild.

Second the vast majority of 3rd party creators are making 5E adjacent material. If you don't buy Rime of the Frostmaiden for example out of protest, then you darn sure aren't going to buy the 3rd-party produced maps, monsters or magic books that are sold as companions to it.

I would guess those two examples represent a majority of the 3rd party published content in terms of sales volume and possibly in terms of revenue. So yes, you are hurting those 3rd party publishers if you refuse to buy WOTC content.

Once you move past the published content you get to the fan content. Fewer people playing 5E and buying 5E material mean a smaller market for fan content, which means a smaller pot to go around and means less money for those creators.

Finally you have the professional players - Dms earning from $10-$50 an hour to put on games. Those professional DMs are going to lose players and it is not just you because you are no longer playing in their WOTC 5E games, but also your friends who you would have otherwise introduced to the game.

There is a reason this has been a golden age of D&D and fragmenting the fan base will undoubtedly hurt the community as a whole.

 

[Incenjucar]

Every edition fragments the base, but 5E is still doing rather well. Fragmenting the 5E base may lead to a similar boom in RPGs across the board.

 

[mamba]

A couple points. First that depends on exactly what WOTC product you buy. Third Party publishers did receive money from Acquisition Incoprorated and Call of the Netherdeep as well as D&D novels and tons of WOTC-licensed content from DMs Guild.

DMsGuild content is by and large 3pp content. I understand that WotC gets a part of that, but that does not make it a WotC product.

Second the vast majority of 3rd party creators are making 5E adjacent material. If you don't buy Rime of the Frostmaiden for example out of protest, then you darn sure aren't going to buy the 3rd-party produced maps, monsters or magic books that are sold as companions to it.

I can use the maps for something else, I can use the monsters for something else, I can buy different 3pp content. None of these hurt 3pps, including the last one.

Your argument always seems to come down to ‘if you do not buy everything, you are hurting those you do not buy from’. No one buys everything, that is impossible. If I spend $50 a month and I still do so, even if it is on somewhat different 3pp products, then 3pps were not hurt by that.

I would guess those two examples represent a majority of the 3rd party published content in terms of sales volume and possibly in terms of revenue. So yes, you are hurting those 3rd party publishers if you refuse to buy WOTC content.

and I hurt those I do not buy from instead by buying these and not having infinite money, that is not much of an argument, see above.

I also doubt that they are the majority of 3pp content. I see the ranking and rough sales on DMsGuild…

Once you move past the published content you get to the fan content. Fewer people playing 5E and buying 5E material mean a smaller market for fan content, which means a smaller pot to go around and means less money for those creators.

and a bigger pot for other 3pps. This might be a bit of a shift in the market, but that is it

There is a reason this has been a golden age of D&D and fragmenting the fan base will undoubtedly hurt the community as a whole.

I am not sure about that, unless ‘the community’ is ‘D&D 5e’, I tend to see the community as larger than that

 

[Older Beholder]

Maybe this would be better as it’s own thread, but…

In regards to the DMs Guild, is there anybody in this thread that sells on there? I’m just curious how your sales went this year with everything that’s gone down? With people boycotting Hasbro, and people doing more to support 3PP, what does that mean for a site that is a 50/50 split between the two?

 

[mamba]

Maybe this would be better as it’s own thread, but…

In regards to the DMs Guild, is there anybody in this thread that sells on there? I’m just curious how your sales went this year with everything that’s gone down? With people boycotting Hasbro, and people doing more to support 3PP, what does that mean for a site that is a 50/50 split between the two?

the split is 50% 3pp, 30% One Bookshelf (the operator of DMG) and 20% WotC I believe.

We have some people publishing on it on this forum, so let’s see what they have to say

 

[ECMO3]

DMsGuild content is by and large 3pp content. I understand that WotC gets a part of that, but that does not make it a WotC product.

Much of it is licensed by WOTC and much of it uses actual WOTC books that are not 3p books (like all the frostmaiden stuff I mentioned earlier).

Get rid of the DMs Guild stuff that is not tied to WOTC, their large campaigns or their worlds like Forgotten Realms or Krynn and you have very little left.

Your argument always seems to come down to ‘if you do not buy everything, you are hurting those you do not buy from’. No one buys everything, that is impossible. If I spend $50 a month and I still do so, even if it is on somewhat different 3pp products, then 3pps were not hurt by that.

My argument is if you retaliate against 5E due to what happened with the OGL you will hurt 3p creators. That is undeniable I think.

and a bigger pot for other 3pps. This might be a bit of a shift in the market, but that is it

No it will actually mean a smaller market overall

 

[mamba]

Much of it is licensed by WOTC and much of it uses actual WOTC books that are not 3p books (like all the frostmaiden stuff I mentioned earlier).

if that is what you mean then everything is licensed by WotC, whether needed or not, that is the whole point of the DMsG (ie what you pay the 20% to WotC for)

 

[Irlo]

My argument is if you retaliate against 5E due to what happened with the OGL you will hurt 3p creators. That is undeniable I think.

I do deny that!

First, I deny that declining to buy a product is retaliation.

Second, I deny that declining to buy a product is harmful. That is not taking anything away from anyone.

I could spend every cent of my disposable income on WotC games and it would provide no benefit to 3rd party publishers. I could buy nothing from WotC, and no 3rd parties would suffer.

 

[mamba]

My argument is if you retaliate against 5E due to what happened with the OGL you will hurt 3p creators. That is undeniable I think.

and if I buy one 3pp product and not another that hurts the creator of the second product. There is only so much money I can spend on this… so no, I disagree with this, me buying one thing over another when both are 3pps / derived from the OGL does no harm to 3pps as a whole